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Baton Training?

Discussion in 'Non-Firearm Weapons' started by Cosmoline, Mar 5, 2011.

  1. Cosmoline

    Cosmoline Well-Known Member

    I've been thinking about getting an Asp baton as an improved thwapper for less-than-lethal defense. Mostly for dogs getting too pushy. I have zero training with these collapsing batons. I've beat things to death with sticks before. That's not my goal here. I want to avoid beating anything to death. I'm assuming there's no bicycle-baton self defense training out there, but what should I look for to get some general idea of how to use these suckers *without* killing someone.
  2. JShirley

    JShirley Administrator Staff Member

    In general, ASP training is simple, easy to learn, and effective. It is, however, oriented towards law enforcement defensive strikes.
  3. lemaymiami

    lemaymiami Well-Known Member

    Second what Jshirley posted. The ASP training is very useful but does emphasize strikes to shoulders, elbows, and knees.... and other things designed to deter an aggressive human while keeping the user clear of retaliation. Since every one of the police K-9 officers I ever worked with had dog bite scars of one kind or another.... I'd re-think using a baton on a dog unless it was a small one.

    Just like using a knife, with a baton you have to get entirely too close...
  4. ColtPythonElite

    ColtPythonElite Well-Known Member

    Pepper spray would be a better choice for dogs.
  5. hso

    hso Moderator Staff Member


    If you're only intent is to use the baton from a bike then you might save yourself some money and just mount a fixed baton to your bike frame. Also, I'm not aware of any training that focuses on the use of a baton from a bike, but I must assume that there is training for horse mounted police using batons in a riot situation. I guess the strikes would be the high to low diagonal strikes in Escrima with and without follow through since you're attacking down to the dog. Add the punyo hammer strikes for very short distances (probably the critter is latched onto you). I'd also guess those same cavalry saber cuts would be applicable with the addition of the vertical circular cuts. Pretty limited set of strikes/cuts possible from a bike.

    If you want to expand to dealing with people you should either get a local LEO to recommend a baton instructor or find an Escrima teacher and work with them. There are a lot of small techniques in baton that build up speed and power beyond the simple "beat sump'n to death" upper body blows delivered with an axe handle. I've found that Escrima focuses on every little bit of technique that converts torque to speed/power from the ground to the tip of the stick. The Japanese and Chinese stick training I've had seemed to leave something out my FMA stick instructors haven't and those other teachers were usually interested in having those FMA small details pointed out.

    So the short answer is, find a good local Guro that teaches Escrima.
  6. kali13

    kali13 Member

    Gonna second Hso's post. Eskrima, Kali, Arnis, what ever you want to call it, Filipino martial arts will give you excellent training in stick-type weapons. Blade and stick is what they do best. Good luck.
  7. MillCreek

    MillCreek Well-Known Member

    Personal experience has taught me that a frame pump clipped to my downtube is essentially useless against dogs.
  8. Cosmoline

    Cosmoline Well-Known Member

    Thanks! There are many folks from the Philippines around town so I'll look into it.

    I'm not a big fan of sprays in general. The wind can be fierce here, and I'd be very concerned about accidentally dosing the dog's owner or myself or just dosing the dog's coat. Also if I try to manipulate the bottle of bear spray with my winter gloves on I'm liable to have troubles.

    This isn't for some Schutzhund trained Malinois or enraged pitbull. Fact is the GSD's, Malinois and pitbulls around here seem pretty well controlled and friendly. The owners know that they have to keep their animals under control before they go out. The much bigger problem I've got are with mid-size sucker biters. Untrained, uncontrolled dogs who see me as some kind of game animal and bum rush me. There are some nearby English bulldogs that do it frequently. I've had to ward them off with a walking stick before but I don't have that on the bike. Last time I had to dart across a road in front of traffic to keep my ankle intact. I do not want to blow some dog away, as discharging a firearm in that manner will bring police and the owner down on me. Plus I don't want to do it. These dogs need stern discipline and they're not getting it from the owner. I *suspect* that the mere act of unfurling the baton will send them scrambling back to mama.

    Plus I am in need of something for less than lethal situations. Particularly with inebriates and sundry punks who aren't presenting a deadly threat but are nevertheless prone to pawing at people and making threats. Last week for example there was a very drunk man in the passenger side of a truck who was glaring at me. If he'd gotten out and charged me *armed* I had hand on revolver already and could have killed him. But *UNarmed* is another matter. I don't relish the idea of a wrestling match with some drunk maniac. People can get their heads and necks broke that way and whether it's me or him that's not what I want. And again as far as sprays that day there was a brutal north wind. Guess what direction he would have been coming from.
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2011
  9. lemaymiami

    lemaymiami Well-Known Member

    In my previous post I focused on baton training without looking at it from another angle.

    I've been told, and seen it demonstrated, that one of the best defenses against aggressive dogs is one developed by postal workers. While on foot they can stop any attacking dog with a simple umbrella, the "pop open" type. In use they stand their ground and only pop open the umbrella when the dog is closing in. The sudden opening of something like that will startle most dogs and get them headed the other way. It should be a simple matter to keep a small telescoping umbrella with your bike....

    Against drunks, you're on your own...
  10. Fred Fuller

    Fred Fuller Moderator Emeritus

    "While on foot they can stop any attacking dog with a simple umbrella, the "pop open" type."

    That's a common element in temperament tests for guardian breed and some other working dogs. Any aggressive response from the dog toward the umbrella operator is restrained by the owner or handler if necessary. TTs take place with the dog on leash and the owner/handler prepared to control the dog's response. With Filas (the breed I'm most familiar with in temperament tests) an aggressive response against what the dog perceives as a threat against its owner/handler is pretty much expected.


    Reaction to Visual Stimulus
    Objective: To measure the dog's reaction to a sudden visual stimulus.

    Subtest 5: Umbrella
    The handler/dog team approaches an assistant sitting in a chair holding a closed umbrella parallel to the ground at a 90 degree angle to the approaching team. When the dog is five feet from the assistant, the umbrella is opened. The handler may encourage the dog to investigate the umbrella only when asked to do so. The handler's focus must be on the umbrella, not on the dog.
    -- http://www.atts.org/testdesc.html
  11. hso

    hso Moderator Staff Member

    I'd check with a dog trainer before betting my butt, or ankles, on that. If you're dealing with ankle biters I'd set the encounter to occur on my own terms and conditions of my choosing and use bear spray to "condition" Fido to stay away. Do this a couple of times and you're far more likely to have the dogs view you as a noxious object to be avoided.
  12. Cosmoline

    Cosmoline Well-Known Member

    Well if he doesn't go back then I've got the stick. Spraying towards a person who isn't doing anything more than failing to control her dogs doesn't seem like a very good option to me. Spray that misses the dog and hits the owner means I do jail time and/or get sued. It's a messy tool, too prone to indiscriminate particulate drift. I've got some of course but testing it didn't impress me at all. It's difficult to get the thing into position, difficult to aim and gets on my fingers.
  13. CWL

    CWL Well-Known Member

    Purely dog control?

    That is an instance where a CS Sjambok may be useful. If you want to use it while mounted (biking), you may want to cut it down a bit so it'll be easier to wield.
  14. hso

    hso Moderator Staff Member


    Think of it as more of a training tool for the dog than a defensive tool for you. You have to set up the situation to train the dog not to come after you and that means you need to intentionally have it in hand/ready for use on a day that the wind isn't going to be a problem. You might consider it a moving ambush of the dog, but it is just aversion training.

    Have you thought about talking to the owner of each of these critters and asking them if they'd help you train the dog not to chase/bite bicyclists?

    Also, what sort of "impression" is knocking out the eye of some dog going to make on the owner? You are not going to have a lot of control and you are going to whack Fido in the mellon as you try to avoid them. How does that compare to seasoning the critter with pepper spray?

    I'm also not sure that your approach is sound. Wielding a stick while trying to ride a bike sounds like a formula for a crash. You may want to check with some bike forum folks and find out how they deal with chasing dogs. We've had several threads in S&T over the years from riders that were trying to come up with ways to deal with dogs and I remember very experienced riders suggesting dismounting and putting the bike between themselves and the dog and "BAD DOG!"ing the critters instead of trying to shoot/club/spray them while on their two wheeled conveyance.
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2011
  15. MillCreek

    MillCreek Well-Known Member

    This is what I do if I cannot outrun them on the bicycle. Trying to manipulate and use spray, a stick or other object while pedaling can be difficult depending on the terrain. Another idea is to use a small spray bottle (set to stream) filled with vinegar or diluted ammonia.
  16. Harley Quinn

    Harley Quinn Well-Known Member

    Have to remember the sticks are considered felony possession as a rule:what:Especially with all the gang activity, using them or bats:eek:

    Cane is legal though:)
  17. Cosmoline

    Cosmoline Well-Known Member

    What rule? You're not allowed to conceal batons in this town, but that's a misdemeanor and I'm not going to be concealing it.

    The key word being DILUTED. If you don't dilute it enough you have created a very, very nasty chemical weapon that can blind any eye it hits. No way am I going to do that. No way. For the same reason I don't make pipe bombs. Also, liquids + Alaska= frozen and useless. If it's diluted enough to be safe, it's probably going to be an ice cube.

    That's a sound strategy, and one I have used. But in some situations it's not practical to stop and dismount without some additional means of protection. Esp. with multiple dogs from multiple directions. I've had good results with the walking stick while warding off the more pushy hunds, but I have no stick on the bike.

    Here's a scenario based on recent events. Multiple bulldogs acting aggressive emerge from around a shed while I'm on an ally approaching a main road. The ground is very, very icy and the wind intense from the north. The dog's owner is calling them back and, being bulldogs, they totally ignore her. As it was I saw a gap in traffic and just went across, in violation of traffic laws of course but what the hey. But had there been no gap, what then? I can dismount, but dogs are on both sides. I have no walking stick to push off aggressive bulls. I'm left to either kick one, which given my size could seriously hurt the animal. And/or end up with my foot being chewed upon. Or I can shoot it, which is a huge can of trouble and I like dogs. I even like these dogs. I could also use the bike as a weapon, which given the fearsome ice studs on it plus the weight of rider and bike will crush the dog. But it will probably also drop me to the ground, and that's not good. If I have the asp, I can at least have that to push them off or thwap a nose. Plus I can wield one with my big gloves on, which is a major advantage here. So that's my line of thought on this problem. Not as a cure-all, but as a gap filler.
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2011
  18. Harley Quinn

    Harley Quinn Well-Known Member

    I am a little punchy about the laws in CA, did not notice you are in AL:uhoh:
    You are right about caustic liquid, would chose something ok to carry anyday..
  19. hso

    hso Moderator Staff Member

    Vinegar is not "caustic" nor will it produce permanent blindness or harm.


    Listen to me on this, a stick is far more likely to permanently injure a dog than commercial sprays or 1 to 1 solutions of ammonia. In my opinion, your concern over using them is out of proportion to the problem. You should have a serious talk with any bike cops and postal delivery route walkers, assuming these exist in your part of Alaska.

    I'm all for you getting training from a good Guro in FMA, but dealing with dogs without injuring them isn't going to be easy with a stick.

    BTW, you need to mix a little propylene glycol in with the ammonia if you don't want itu to freeze.
  20. Cosmoline

    Cosmoline Well-Known Member

    It would need to be upwards of 40% around here, but in any event I am NOT open to chemistry experiments. No way, not ever.

    What is it about a baton that makes it that dangerous? I have already used sticks to ward off dogs and they work really well, without injuring either one of us. Is the problem that you can't prod with it, you have to strike?

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