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Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by rm23, Apr 4, 2012.

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  1. rm23

    rm23 Well-Known Member

    I just got an email two hours ago from budsgunshop.com.

    If anyone is not familiar with the pay-per-bid online auctions, you buy chances to bid on auction items for $0.03-0.05. The items may start out very cheap (ex: $1 for a Colt 6920). The problem is that you'll get into a bidding war with many users that can last 20,000 bids, only to have the price be at the normal retail price. You also never know when you're in a bidding war with a computer who won't allow the item to sell below reserve.

    These scams have been around on the internet for a while (quibids). I'm just surprised that a well-known business would stoop to this level with this type of service. Unless you love to throw away money, avoid this.
  2. TurtlePhish

    TurtlePhish Well-Known Member

    Yeah, gonna stick with Gunbroker...
  3. sammyspizza

    sammyspizza Well-Known Member

    I got the email as well, and I was thinking the same thing.
  4. tyeo098

    tyeo098 Well-Known Member

    The mods needs to start having canned responses for threads like these.
  5. JohnBT

    JohnBT Well-Known Member

    "penny auction site"

    They did what?
  6. dogtown tom

    dogtown tom Well-Known Member

    I got that email from Bud's today.

    I sent them an email expressing my displeasure that they would associate themselves with a penny auction site.

    Penny "auctions" aren't auctions any more than a slot machine is an ATM.

    It's gambling, period.
  7. Atom Smasher

    Atom Smasher Well-Known Member

    Yeah, for those who don't know, it isn't like Ebay where if you don't win the item you don't pay. With penny auctions, you're actually paying 1-2 cents per bid, and if you don't win then tough, because you've already put all that money down. It really is gambling.
  8. dampoo

    dampoo Well-Known Member

  9. Bubbles

    Bubbles Well-Known Member

    I thought with these auctions the sellers only received the final value bid, while the auction site received the money for the bids made. So, the auction site could end up making more than the actual seller on the transaction.

    Now, if the "auctioneer" is also the FFL then yeah, they'll really make a killing on the sale.
  10. dogtown tom

    dogtown tom Well-Known Member

    Here's Bud's response......

  11. AK47TIM

    AK47TIM Well-Known Member

    I was kind of disappointed as well seeing them associate with this site.

    Sent from my DROID X2 using Tapatalk
  12. 45_auto

    45_auto Well-Known Member

    You guys don't think Bud's should sell guns to bidgunner????

    What other businesses, races, religions, or whatever that can legally purchase firearms do you think that Bud's should not sell to?

    The people buying guns on bidgunner probably think that Bud's ought not to be selling guns to you guys .......
  13. rm23

    rm23 Well-Known Member

    45_auto, I think this one went way over your head.
  14. nofishbob

    nofishbob Well-Known Member

    I don't care who Bud's sells to.

    Bud's was unclear (deceptive?) in their original e-mail, calling Bidgunner their "friends and partner". It was easy to assume that there was a business relationship between Bud's and Bidgunner. This lowered my (very high) opinion of Bud's.

    Bud's second e-mail distances them from Bidgunner, clarifying that they are just selling guns to them at regular prices. Quite a difference from the first e-mail in my opinion.

    My guess is that negative feedback was pouring in.

    Its nice to know that as a regular Bud's customer, they must consider me their partner, too.

    Penny auctions are gambling, not auctions.

  15. http://www.smartmoney.com/spend/family-money/how-penny-auctions-work-1300313918147/

    The latter is closer to the situation in every penny-auction I've seen. Unlike eBay, the public at large can't list items, just the site itself. You may notice the gunbidder.com site says nothing about selling.

    As you saw in dogtown tom's post (posted after yours, of course), bidgunner is the purchaser of the guns from Bud's. As with most sites of this nature, the auction isn't a service brokering a deal between buyers and sellers, the auction is actually an interface to a retail site.

    I missed where anyone said that. I think people might be disappointed that Bud's is associated that Bud's was promoting this kind of site.

    Just a quick review of how this sort of site works vs a regular auction.

    Regular auction:

    Seller lists something with the commitment to sell to highest bid.
    Auction service facilitates auction, taking a cut.
    Buyers make offers at no costs, with the commitment to buy if their bid is the highest.

    Simplified example:
    Seller lists for Glock 20 starting at $350.
    Bidders bid in whatever increment they want, bids costs nothing. Auction ends at a certain time (or so long after the last bid, depending on the format).
    Let's say 20 people bid on the Glock 20 and the price ends at $550. 19 of those people have not incurred a cost, 1 now owes the seller $550.
    Seller owes auction service a fee, say %5. Seller pays auction site $27.50.

    Final score:
    Winning bidder gets Glock 20 for $550 + shipping or whatever.
    Seller gets $527.50
    Auction site gets: $27.50​


    Penny auction:
    Seller and auction service are same entity.
    Bidders buy bids to make offers on item. Item goes to highest bidder.

    Simplified example:

    Simplified example:
    Seller lists for Glock 20 starting at $.01.
    Bidders bid in penny increments, bids costs a certain amount (based on video, about $.60). Auction is extended after each bid.
    Let's say 20 people bid on the Glock 20 and the price ends at $59 (90% of retail!). Assuming bids are distributed evenly, 19 spent $177 (265 bids @ $60) to bid. The winner paid $236 for his Glock 20.

    Final score:
    Winning bidder gets Glock 20 for $236+ shipping or whatever.
    19 non-winning bidders paid $177 each.
    Seller / Auction site gets: $3776

    It appears that gunbidder lets you apply your bid price to buying the item at the retail value. So, if you were one of bidders who didn't win, you could opt to buy the Glock 20 (likely at the full retail price of $590), applying the $177 you already spent to it. Sunk costs and all.

    One of the keys to these sites is they spread it out among lots of bidders, so you have instead of having 20 bidders on an item, you have 200 or 2000 to spread out the cost.

    In the end, if people understand what they are getting into, whatever. I just think it is important that people know how they work and really don't think that every gets to walk way with a Glock for $59.
  16. daehawc

    daehawc Well-Known Member

    I really dont see any problem with it. Like any other auction/gambling site the consumer knows what they are getting into. Penny auctions have been around long enough for people to know what the risks are. If you win you do save a substantial amount of money.

    Now if the site is using bots to artifically drive up the auctions thats a completely different matter. I think it may be presumtive to say that they WILL be doing illegal/immoral actions as they are a brand new site.

    As for buds affiliation, they are a business trying to make money in a down economy. Good on them. The more volume they sell the cheaper prices can be for all of us.

    The fact that you can apply a portion of your losing bids toward purchasing the firearm seems to be a honest practice that limits the gambling aspect and then you are just buying it at a price likely slightly inflated from just ordering from Buds.
  17. Acera

    Acera Well-Known Member

    Found a closed auction that seems to actually gone to a person. A bunch were on there with a single bid, hope that was some of you guys, LOL.

    Beretta CX-4 Carbine, 9mm. $915 Retail Price (Which Buds shows as out of stock , and no price. Impact guns lists theirs for $862.99)

    Sold for $35.45

    At $.65 a bid: 3545 x .65 = $2,304.25 worth of bids were placed
    (That is the cheapest bid price possible, which is probably not the case on all of them, the bids range in price from .65-.90 depending on the number you buy.)

    $2,304.25 + $35.45 = $2,339.70 is what they got for that gun.

    End Result, they profited by selling a gun for 2 1/2 times retail value, someone got a heck of a deal for less than $40, bunch of folks spent a total of $2,300+ and got nothing.

    I am real leery of these sites, especially when some items go real cheap. Just don't trust the folks running the auction to not use their own bids to run the price up, or "win" an auction to prevent a loss.

    However, I hope some of these are actually being won by legitimate individuals.

    Some new observations. Currently a $35 tomahawk is sitting at $.74, that means they already have made almost $50, or $15 above retail made on that one, and it still has a week to go higher.

    These are over a week long auctions, not like the other sites which run theirs for less than a day. I bet we see some real stupid profits by them on these items. Don't see myself ever buying any bids and getting more involved.
  18. 45_auto

    45_auto Well-Known Member

    Kind of works the same way with lotterys, penny auction sites, or any other form of gambling. Lots of people put up a lot of money (640 million in the Megamillions last week - over HALF A BILLION dollars) and only a few win anything - 3 tickets split the 640 million.

    If you don't like it, you don't have to play. But if other people want to, why should it bother anyone how much the site makes on their merchandise or who they buy it from?

    Is everyone just jealous that someone got a killer deal on a nice gun?
  19. TheDriver

    TheDriver Well-Known Member

    It's hilarious to me that the .gov says I can bid on penny auctions, but I CANNOT EVER gamble online on sports or poker.

    It's an absurd distinction.
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