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Black Powder Subs-

Discussion in 'Blackpowder' started by raa-7, Mar 10, 2013.

  1. raa-7

    raa-7 Well-Known Member

    Does anyone know what they are putting in the black powder substitutes,besides the three major parts/compounds that we know of ? I was just thinking,,what do they put in them to make them more powerful than the competition.The Tripple 7,made by Hodgdon is supposed to have more power than other brands of bp substitutes.So what are they putting into the mix that gives it more Power/BanG/oompH ?Or,, what do you think they mix into it? ?Any Ideas ? thanks for any info:D
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2013
  2. mykeal

    mykeal Well-Known Member

    It's <proprietary>.
  3. kwhi43@kc.rr.com

    kwhi43@kc.rr.com Well-Known Member

    I know they mix some BS in.
  4. YumaKid

    YumaKid Well-Known Member

    Yes, it is proprietary - makes (dollars and) sense to keep it that way.

    Pardon the obvious pun. But while the folks at Hodgdon are undoubtedly nice guys and shooters themselves,they buy food and pay their bills with funds that they receive when we buy their powder. And the Good Lord knows that if the "recipe" for Pyrodex or Triple Seven or any other product hit the Internet; somebody will try to copy it, goof it up, and suddenly there will be one less powder manufacturer out there, along with some very happily richer ambulance-chasing lawyers.

    All my disclaimers having been thrown out there; I seem to remember reading somewhere that 777 was "sugar-based".
    Hey, it was posted on the Internet, so it MUST be true, right? :evil:
  5. woodnbow

    woodnbow Well-Known Member

    ^^^ what yuma kid says... It's good powder IMO. I'm less concerned about what's in it, as long as it works well I'm happy to support the guys who provide it.
  6. raa-7

    raa-7 Well-Known Member

    I heard the same about the tripple 7 being sugar bassed too.I know that sugar based powders are sometimes used for fireworks or those model rocket engines.. I'm just curious to know what they put in to give that extra bang,but if everyone knew about it,I guess we'd be makin it too :p Could it be Potassium Perchlorate ? I'm just guessing.:rolleyes:
  7. MCgunner

    MCgunner Well-Known Member

    +1 The one thing I wish I could easily get BP for, though, is ignition reliability. Pyrodex, 777, the subs all are harder to ignite and that keeps me from getting a flinter. I know, I know, I can order 200,000 lbs of it and the hazmat fee will be reasonable. :rolleyes: When I get my hardened storage bunker built, I might consider that. Meanwhile, 777 has a power advantage and most of it works in my caplocks. I tried Blachhorn 209 in my inline, didn't like it, prefer 777.
  8. EljaySL

    EljaySL Well-Known Member

    I like 777 a lot in the revolvers, but less even in other percussion guns. I think I've spent more on upgrading nipples and buying every cap on the market to deal with some fussy percussion guns than I would have spent on the hazmat for one big BP order.

    And do try a flintlock. They're fun and the one shot pistols don't use all that much BP.
  9. Driftwood Johnson

    Driftwood Johnson Well-Known Member


    It's no secret.

    Hodgdon has the MSDS sheets for all their powder posted right on their website.


    They don't tell you the ratios, but they do tell you exactly what is in them.

    When Pyrodex was originally formulated, it was made so that it delivered the same amount of energy per volume as real Black Powder does.

    For some reason, Triple Seven is formulated to be about 15% more powerful than real Black Powder. This is also posted right on their website. A few years ago I head that they were going to come up with a new formula that delivered the same energy as Black Powder, but I have not heard any more about that.
  10. raa-7

    raa-7 Well-Known Member

    There are other ingredients besides the Charcoal,Potassium nitrate,Potassium perchlorate,Sulfer and the graphite.They won't tell you "every", component they put in the powder,but they say the information can be disclosed per 29cfr 1910 . 1200 (i) whatever that means...
  11. Doak

    Doak Well-Known Member

    Many years ago, in my model rocket phase, I made what's known as "Carmel Candy Rocket Fuel".

    60% Potassium Nitrate, 40% Powdered Sugar, by weight. Nothing more. You can blend it dry, or, as the name implies, melt it in the oven, below it's flashpoint, into a carmel "candy" w/the consistency of hot tar. Then pour it into a mould. After it solidifies, it can be inserted into a rocket motor.

    I only ever mixed it in it's dry form, & tamped into small paper tube rockets. If the rocket nozzle was too small in diameter, the rockets would explode. Later, I learned that this mixture was also known as "White Gun Powder". It needs to be confined to explode, similar to smokeless.

    It does leave behind a residue more difficult to clean up than BP.
  12. EljaySL

    EljaySL Well-Known Member

    re: 29cfr 1910 . 1200 (i)

    CFR is code of federal register or something like that. It's where regulations are published. That section is OSHA stuff re: hazardous materials.


    1920.1200(i) covers trade secrets. Basically what they're telling you is that if you really need to know they'll tell you a little more but no more than OSHA absolutely requires since they consider the exact formula to be secret. There's a whole system where you can tell your concerns to a doctor and they'll tell the doctor what's in it and the doctor will go back to you and disclose if your concern is valid or not but no details.
  13. raa-7

    raa-7 Well-Known Member

    AH, I knew that code would have to give up some information and I suspected it would also be protected.They are covered so well by all of that ! I was just so curious to what went in it,but I'll bet there are people out there constantly experimenting with different ingredients to try to come up with better.That would be a risky venture. Thanks for that web site,it's pretty interesting.I would not have known where to look for that code !
  14. mustanger

    mustanger Well-Known Member

    This doesn't really answer your question, but, burn rate would influence preasure peaks. ie. FFF bp compared to FF bp. Just a thought.
  15. EljaySL

    EljaySL Well-Known Member

    That's the way it works. Some bureaucrats get tasked with regulating something and they seek input from the affected companies and there's various rounds of public comment and eventually they always seem to end up with something that the existing large players can deal with but it's a nightmare for any new, small players to enter the space. Big companies can afford full time departments to deal with this stuff. But I digress.
  16. raa-7

    raa-7 Well-Known Member

    Yes, and it sure looks very effective.Thanks for the info and that govt web site,now I have some direction on where to look when I see those confusing codes like that.I'll bet that they discourage alot of people from digging further,because I didnt know where to find things like that,all I could think when I saw it was, it must be in some sort of code/law book.
  17. Lunie

    Lunie Well-Known Member

    CFR = "Code of Federal Regulations" = The colossal collection of regulations created to implement the laws and authority granted by the USC to our massive bureaucracy.

    USC = "United States Code" = Collection of the permanent laws of the United States. "Massive" is an understatement.
  18. EljaySL

    EljaySL Well-Known Member

    Thank you. I was combining acronyms in my head - the Federal Register is where rules and proposed rules get published.
  19. ThorinNNY

    ThorinNNY Well-Known Member

    I prefer to use Goex black powder.I tried Pyrodex, and let`s just say I`d shoot with it if real black powder was no longer available.:eek: I`d be very unhappy that I could no longer get Goex, but still slightly satisfied I had something (BP sub) that -frequently goes BOOM and often pushes prbs and minie balls out of my smokepoles!:eek:
  20. raa-7

    raa-7 Well-Known Member

    Oh yeah,without a doubt ! If I couldnt get the real bp I,d use the Pyrodex,and I use it anyway just to have a variety of powder.The walmart I go to has the "P" and the "RS" and I got some of it.It sends the lead down range just as well.Some people say it's garbage,and I could never understand that.The only thing I can think of is that its a little harder to clean up.

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