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Black Powder Subs-

Discussion in 'Blackpowder' started by raa-7, Mar 10, 2013.

  1. YumaKid

    YumaKid Well-Known Member

    I'm jealous of all you guys who can pick (at the very least) a sub at Wally World - they've got NOTHING for BP in my town. It's even "mighty slim pickins" at the one LGS that carries anything BP. If you want something more 'exotic' :rolleyes: than Pyrodex P or RS, Remington #11 or CCI #10 caps; you are SOL.

    When friends/family are flying into town is when I make my powder and caps runs to Cabelas in Phoenix; it's the only saving grace about having to pay $200 to fly into Yuma - I can drive up to "the big town" and go shopping for "necessities" for less than the cost of the flight.

    Now if I could just figure out what phase of the moon is occuring when Cabelas actually has Remington #10's in stock; and get people to arrive during THAT period......
  2. MCgunner

    MCgunner Well-Known Member

    Reminds me of this bit of wisdom....

    Pythagorean theorem: 24 words. The Lord's prayer: 66 words. Archimedes' Principle: 67 words. The Ten Commandments: 179 words. Lincoln's Gettysburg Address: 286 words. The entire Declaration of Independence: 1,300 words. Current US Government regulations on the retail sale of cabbage: 26,911 words.
  3. raa-7

    raa-7 Well-Known Member

    Now if I could just figure out what phase of the moon is occuring when Cabelas actually has Remington #10's in stock; and get people to arrive during THAT period......[/QUOTE] :D I like how you put that,with the moon phase n all :p I can only get the Bp at W-mart in the fall, so when they do have it I'll buy a few pounds of it.This time around they only put out the RS,which I already had plenty of. And actually,,, the planets have to be aligned just right in order to be able to get the Pyrodex "P" from them :p But I would have to otherwise order it and pay the hazmat fee,which nobody likes paying,or take a long drive and spend it on gas.
  4. MCgunner

    MCgunner Well-Known Member

    Walmart and BP? Right. :rolleyes: Of course this is goose hunting country and the only ammo our local WM has is 10 gauge 3.5" magnum steel T shot, three shelves full of it, and not a .22 round in the state. :rolleyes; They don't really have to stock BP to make me happy, just get my Federal 550 round bulk packs back!

    Do they store it out back there in a bunker or break the law? Just wondering. It's like pulling teeth at most walmarts to get service at the sporting goods counter and when you do get help, they're clueless. :rolleyes: I can imagine asking one of 'em to go out back for 4 lbs of FFFG. I doubt most of 'em could spell FFFG.
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2013
  5. YumaKid

    YumaKid Well-Known Member

    McGunner: I'm with you. I can remember in the not-too-distant past (one U.S. President ago) when the best deal going in Yuma was the 1325-round pack of Federal .22LR's for some stupid low price like $27.
    As of two days ago, you could get any kind of ammo you wanted, so long as it was Winchester .270 or 7mm Mag! The rest of the shelves had varying layers of dust on them, depending upon how long ago the stock had run out.

    I about FREAKED when I went into a Wally World somewhere in SW Iowa with my son-in-law this past August.... MANY BP inlines, some with either laminated or Realtree-printed 'glass stocks and hundreds of saboted rounds from Hornaday and the like. Unfortunately, what we were looking for was some SD/HD rounds in .45ACP for the XDM he had just gotten in a trade; and the same in .357 for the S&W 66 we had found dirty and unloved at a local gunshow for his wife/my daughter's birthday - almost "exactly like Mom's", which was her request.
    But there was 'No Joy in Wal-Mart' that day; unless fully jacketed ball could be considered SD/HD in either caliber, because that's all they had. And that was BEFORE the Elections! Fortunately, digging through the stockroom at the hardware store where my daughter works in another Iowa town netted us the HOLY GRAIL..... Hydra-Shok's in both calibers; and for only $35 per box (with her employee discount).

    At the hardware store, the Pyro (and GOEX!!!) are stored in a big-azz safe from some no-longer-existant bank. Wal-Mart? I have no clue, and will probably never know; since none of the FOUR stores within 15 miles of my house would offer you anything but a 1000 yard stare if you asked for powder. :(
  6. Ryden

    Ryden Well-Known Member

    From the MSD's, they should list every major ingredient above a certain percentage, which I've thankfully forgot, but MSD's are seldome what they should be.

    However, since the chemistry of explosives (at least low order explosives, the kind we're interested in) is rather simple we'd likely as not be able to see if anything important was missing.

    Potassium Nitrate
    Potassium Perchlorate
    Graphite 2.5mg/m3 respirable dust

    Triple 7:
    Potassium Nitrate
    Potassium Perchlorate
    Graphite 2.5mg/m3 respirable dust

    We can ignore the graphite as it's only used to coat the granulared powder.

    I'd say the Pyrodex is nought but BP with enough Potassium Perchlorate mixed in to legally make it something else. I suspect that Pyrodex being harder to ignite as seems to be the commen perception here is due to a higher ignition temperature, which in this case means less Sulphur.

    Triple 7 doesn't use sulphur at all which tells me that the perchlorate content is much higher than in Pyrodex, Sulphur and Potassium Perchlorate makes an interesting flash powder that is friction sensitive and unstable, imagine ramming your ramrod down on that...

    Perchlorates give a higher burnrate than nitrates which would explain the 15% increase in power.

    My conclusions would have to be that Pyrodex is a modified BP where a portion of the nitrate has been substituted for perchlorate and the ratios adjusted to give the same performance as regular BP.

    Triple 7 is an old fashioned chlorate based propellant of the type used as high explosive from the civil war up to WW1 with Potassium Nitrate included to boost the smoke.

    I'd say that anything else they put in would have very little to do with the burning proerties and more to do with manufacturing.
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2013
  7. raa-7

    raa-7 Well-Known Member

    Thanks Ryden,at first guess,I said maybe potasium perchlorate might be in the Pyrodex,because of it's explosive abilities.And yeah, that would be pretty dangerous to use the ram rod on potassium perchlorate and sulfer :eek: I would'nt want to be the guy doin it, or even be next to someone doing that :uhoh:
  8. mykeal

    mykeal Well-Known Member

    Hmm. Kind of leaves us with a logical conundrum, doesn't it?

    Since potassium perchlorate and sulfur mixed form an impact sensitive flash powder, and it appears they are mixed together in 777, and since several thousand black powder shooters use 777 in their guns (loading with a ramrod and thus subjecting the 777 to an impact load), one would expect at least a few incidents of accidental discharge resulting from the loading causing the potassium perchlorate and sulfur mixture to go high order.

    But there seems to be no anecdotal evidence that those incidents occur.

    So what am I missing here?
  9. Patocazador

    Patocazador Well-Known Member

    Sulfur wasn't listed under 777 in Ryden's post.
  10. mykeal

    mykeal Well-Known Member

    :eek:That would explain it.
  11. Ryden

    Ryden Well-Known Member

    I'm sorry Mykeal, it's my fault for not being able to write a coherent sentence.
  12. Ryden

    Ryden Well-Known Member

    A bit of further reading, anyone ever used the IMR White Hots?

    Its Potassium Nitrate and Potassium Perchlorate and nothing else according to the MSD
    http://www.imrpowder.com/PDF/MSDS Files/Muzzleloading/WhiteHots.pdf

    This sounds a bit iffy, they are both oxidizers and no fuel is mentioned.
    With chlorates, usually a metal fuel such as aluminium is used but that can't be the case here as that would make the powder grey.

    When I was young and immortal I used to make my own fireworks, when I got kids I grew chicken (or smart) and stopped doing them, but the only chlorate compositions I recall that used something white as fuel are the whistle mixes, and those you'd never want to put into a gun.

    I suspect that the fuel here is sugar of some kind, I bet I'm not the only one here that used to mix herbicide and sugar to blow something up as a kid :)
  13. mykeal

    mykeal Well-Known Member

    Ah, yeah, my wife often uses the same excuse...;)
  14. 303tom

    303tom member

    NO one maker of a Black Powder Substitute is more powerful than another.
  15. Patocazador

    Patocazador Well-Known Member

    Is there a hidden message in this sentence or do you mean that the product produced is not more powerful???
  16. raa-7

    raa-7 Well-Known Member

    Shoot,, If anyone on this forum doesnt make sense, or makes iNcoheReNt posts it WoULd Be mE ! At least you guys are nice about it,some forums will just about hang a guy for messin up :p
  17. raa-7

    raa-7 Well-Known Member

    I have heard that tripple -7 is more powerful grain for grain.I have not tried it out yet, but want to.
  18. 303tom

    303tom member

    I found this , so I would say watch what you are doing............
    Triple Seven may be, volume for volume, more powerful and users should follow load recommendations from the manufacturer.
  19. Ryden

    Ryden Well-Known Member

    That's what we're talking about here when we say that something is more powerful.

    Black powder is measured by volume rather than weight as modern powders are and if you put in the normal volume of 777 in your gun you have an overload of 15%, hence more powerful.
  20. raa-7

    raa-7 Well-Known Member

    I hope that anyone shooting Bp knows that, and doesnt take any of it for granted.

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