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Brand new Rem 700 Cdl Sf, not grouping

Discussion in 'Handloading and Reloading' started by Jdscada, Dec 19, 2012.

  1. Jdscada

    Jdscada Member

    Hello guys, it's me again, thought I would bring up another challenge that I am having, seems like a black cloud is following me here lately.

    I purchased a brand new Remington 700 CDL SF in a 257 weatherby magnum, after inspecting rifle, I cleaned barrel and put a couple of drops of oil in bolt and operated, seemed to work fine.

    While at ranch, boresighted, and shot a few rounds of weatherby barnes 100 grain tsx's. I was not getting a grouping that I expected, it was like 6" or worse. After a couple more rounds letting barrel cool between shots it was not improving so I checked to see if barrel was floating, don't know why I did not check first off while inpspecting, amateur, I guess you could say. When I tried to run dollar under barrel, it did not even get an inch into stock before coming into a complete hault. I checked to see if screw's were too tight, I had to back out completely loose before I got a good float. I took gun apart and inspected stock, could not notice any flaws besides that is was rough like it was never sanded. I took a rag, since that is all I had being at the ranch and tried to smooth a bit, no luck.

    I was wondering if it's possible that maybe stock when milled was that maybe where the lug goes that maybe it was milled too much and lug is not seating on bottom of stock. To test theory, only thing I could come up with out in the sticks, was to implant something in lug space under rifles lug, I smashed two non-insulated crimp connectors with a sledge completely flat and placed them into lug space and put barrel back in and tightened screws and I finally got barrel to float, and gun shot a little better producing like almost 1 MOA.

    BUT :) , while shooting these rounds, also was experiencing that bolt was also having issue. On some of the Weatherby rounds, bolt was a little harder to close and extremely hard to open, after fired, it varied between bullets. I called remington, and asked if it was a possible freebore issue. Remington says to try different ammo, that most likely it's the weatherby ammo. I have always been under the understanding that weatherby ammo is premium ammo, match grade ammo. This all leads to my other post where i am making some 257 ammo to try using working loads from someone who has a good working reload with the same ammo on the same gun.

    Any ideas??

    I will be shooting reloads today to see if I get a better group and if bolt cooperates, will let you all know how it pans out.
  2. ArchAngelCD

    ArchAngelCD Well-Known Member

    Weatherby ammo is top quality but it's also known to be very hot.
    I agree you should try different ammo before you condemn the rifle.

    If you go to the 700 CDL SF page on the Remington site they do not make the claim the barrel is fully floated. I think I read there is a contact point at the front of the stock on some of the Rem 700 rifles but I could be wrong.
  3. Certaindeaf

    Certaindeaf member

    A lot of rifles shoot best/very well with upward pressure to the barrel by the stock. A lot of rifles are intentionally made this way. You say you "floated" the barrel and got better groups but you said you had oiled the barrel before firing your first group with the non-floated barrel. Don't have an oily barrel while shooting groups. Run a clean patches(s) through it and then at least one "fouling" shot is required to then check a rifle.
    Anyway, good luck. Also, remember, your rifle is new and most people put a tiny dab of grease instead of oil on the locking lugs of a bolt gun to ease operation.
  4. Jdscada

    Jdscada Member

    Your right on the gun description, and remington did not seemed shocked when I told them that it was not floating, probably rolled their eyes, nevertheless, I just thought most guns shoot better with no interference on the barrel vibration from the stock. As for the grease on the bolt, what suggestions do you all have on type, would like to make it a little smoother. Would lubriplate work for that, it's a very light lithium grease?

    I did run a dry patch before shooting rounds and also ran a bore snake, btw, what do you all think about the bore snake? Is it adequate when testing loads and you want to remove some of the fouling between shot groups?
  5. Kachok

    Kachok Well-Known Member

    I have not had any luck with Remingtons since they sold their soul to the devil in 2007 neither have any of my friends. Despite the fact that I love the 700 action I have sworn off their porducts.
  6. MtnCreek

    MtnCreek Well-Known Member

    Don't do that. The lug is not there to hold the action / barrel at a certin height in the stock. The lug does not need to touch the bottom of the stock or bedding. You're putting the action in a bind.

    Edit: Just in case I forgot to mention; Don't Do That. :-(
  7. Jdillon

    Jdillon Well-Known Member

    I purchased a 700 CDL SF in 300 WSM a couple of years ago and had similar issues. The rifle would just not group well despite trying several different powder combinations. Was ready to get rid of it it but decided to give it a another chance. Had Charlie Robertson at Score High pillar bed the action and float the barrel. In addition, recrowned the muzzle and installed a Timney trigger. Now the rifle shoots sub .5 MOA if I am up to it that particular day. I have noticed that the POI will wander as the barrel heats up due to the slim profile. For an additional investment of approx. $300 made a huge improvement to the way it shoots.
  8. Jdscada

    Jdscada Member

    300 is not bad, I'm willing to ditch that out to make it shoot good, just sad that it would have to be done with rifle that one would think should do 1 moa @100yds. Not to judge Remington, well, maybe I should.....but my Tikka continental in 7mm gave me .5 -- 1 moa right out of the box with a couple different premium ammunition and it cost 400 less, of course that was at dealer cost and about 8 years ago, maybe more, losing memory, they say it's the second thing that goes. :)
  9. dsm

    dsm Well-Known Member

    For one, I would not be sticking anything below the recoil lug to raise the barreled action. That would cause a binding scenario on the receiver. Have the gun professionally bedded and floated. The bottom and the sides of the recoil lug should not contact the stock.

    Also, are you shooting off a SOLID mechanical rest and sand bags? Bench solid? Wind? Parallax corrected on optics? Rings/bases tight? Scope OK? Crisp trigger?
  10. Jdscada

    Jdscada Member

    bench, with sand bags, little to no wind, maybe 3-5mph. Trigger seems to be crisp, however I would like to adjust down a bit. no longer have shim under lug, was just experimenting since I was expecting floating barrel, apparently it should not be. Going to try some reloads tomorrow, hopefully wind will be down, was too high to try today. Remington seems to be convinced that it was weatherby ammo. Also shot with two different scopes that had no previous problems on 270 and 308.
  11. Jdscada

    Jdscada Member

    Okay, shot some new loads through this gun that are proven on another gun of the same model and type and caliber. Best I could get was 3.875 group, crazy right?

    Well, I received my modified brass today for the 257 wby and to my surprise, the OAL with a Barnes ttsx 100 grain bullet was 3.08 :what:

    So, when I compared this to the weatherby ammo, it was 2.455 :what: so I was .625" when firing Wby ammo :what: Now that is some jump, I know they say that Barnes likes some jump, but you got to be kidding........

    I know everybody is thinking, the Wby ammo is a 100 grain tsx bullet, but there is very little difference from what I can see. Almost nothing.

    I have heard of freebore, but dang, over half an inch, is this normal???

    I am going to get the other gun that is exactly like mine and run modified case in it to see if readings are the same, but I don't think they will be, maybe I'm wrong, I hope not.

    I am making some more ammo and going to try .17 and .23 off lands, this is the closest I can probably get to lands without bullet almost unable to seating in brass. This is because Barnes are usually longer for the same weight bullet compared to some.

    Any Ideas?? I'm going to try these loads tomorrow, check the other gun's OAL with same bullets, last thing is boxing it back up, unless somebody convinces me otherwise :)
  12. Delmar

    Delmar Well-Known Member

    There should be about .378 freebore in your rifle, and thats something I would not crowd for safetys sake.

    I never was much for "pressure points" on a rifle barrel because I consider that a band aid rather than an accuracy modification, and every rifle I have owned which had a pressure point on the stock for the barrel, Ive either traded in the stock or got out the rasp and removed it.

    The biggest problem with a pressure point barrel set up is that on a wood stock, the pressure is going to vary depending on humidity and such. Not a good idea at all to raise the lug out of the stock, especially on a Remington. You could end up bending the lug and thats a bad thing.

    From what you have posted, the barrel prefers to be freefloated and it it were my rifle, is likely what I would do.
  13. joed

    joed Well-Known Member

    Typical of Remingon, they have no idea what a free floated barrel is. And do not believe that some rifles shoot better with pressure on the barrel, that's nonsense. In 36 years of owning and shooting rifles I've learned nothing helps more then a free floated barrel.

    I no longer buy Remington products and have gone on to Winchester. When a company fails to learn from their mistake you have to leave them.

    However, 6" tells me something else is wrong. But I would have someone bed the action. I've had to do that on every new Remington I own.
  14. floorit76

    floorit76 Well-Known Member

    My new spsv 700 in 308 was shooting 4" groups with 180grn Winchesters, but when I switched to Federal Gold MEdal match 168grn the groups fell to 3/4". My stock is in full contact with the barrel, for now anyway.
  15. Delmar

    Delmar Well-Known Member

    [QUOTETypical of Remingon, they have no idea what a free floated barrel is.][/QUOTE]

    Both of my Remington 700 VS rifles were freefloated from the factory. I have seen rifles properly full length bedded shoot some impressive groups, if done correctly.
    What I liked about the Varmint Synthetic is that they have the aluminum bedding block, and when the action is torqued to spec, the action can be removed, cleaned and reinstalled with no shift of zero.
    Also doesnt seem to matter what ammo I feed them, whether its factory or careful handloads, they all go under an inch and my best handload goes about a half a minute when I do my part.
  16. Jdscada

    Jdscada Member

    Well, guys, I'm not so happy to say, but relieved to say that this gun that I bought for my son, does not like any factory ammo at all or perhaps the combination of powder,bullet, and seating depth that weatherby,hornady, or remington ammo uses. I have tried everything to make factory work, and finally decided to try some reloads. I took a load from online, loaddata I believe, and worked up a load between the min and max powder charge, in this case 72-74 of H1000. Which I seem to be hearing is a great powder for the 257 Wby. I found some Hornady 117 gr. SST FB and also read that the heavier bullets seem to yield more accuracy in the 257 Wby. Used my OAL from Hornady LockNLoad and modified case to verify OAL on this rifle, which come to find out is long, factory ammo was like .61 from lands, if I remember correctly. After trying a few different depths, found 3.26 to be best group with 73.5 gr of H1000, gave me .51" group but still need to see if I am going to glass bed it and I need to adjust trigger. After really verifying this load, a few times to make real sure it was being consistant, zeroed rifle for 300. Son has killed a hog at 160 yards, and a 8 point at 300.
  17. flashhole

    flashhole Well-Known Member

    Try Retumbo powder and Sierra 120 grain bullets. I bet you smile a lot with this combination.
  18. IROCZ

    IROCZ Well-Known Member

    Jd, On a Remington 700 the recoil lug CANNOT contact on the bottom of the stock if you want to get any accuracy out of it! I'm no expurt but I have been to a Remmy armorers class. If your bottom metal is aluminum (probly is) tighten the gaurd screws to 35 INCH Pounds. If it is steel tighten to 45 INCH Pounds. No more. Overtightening the gaurd screws makes some rifles shoot wildly. Over tightening aluminum may break it. Rem always leaves 2 little "pads" about 1 to 1 1/2 in from the forend tip. The CDL has kind of a light barrel, you may not want to free float it. I would suggest sending it back under warranty if it still won't group to your satisfaction. I myself, would be calling Brownells and ordering up an Acra Glass Gel kit...But once you do that you have no more warranty. (And rightly so!) Good Luck! And nice caliber, I always wanted one of them!
  19. Jdscada

    Jdscada Member

    Thanks for information on torquing of screws, I was not sure, but there is nothing under the recoil lug anymore, that was something I tried when I was having issues with gun.
  20. IROCZ

    IROCZ Well-Known Member

    My 700 Mountain rifle in .308 also had issues out of the box. After bedding, lapping, adjusting torque, adding a new trigger etc.....It finally is a 1 1/4 gun at 100 yds. It is a trade off for super light weight. :rolleyes:

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