Browning Side-by-Side

[Dave McCracken]

A good smith I know said the following about dry firing shotguns.

" Modern firearms, except rimfires, hardly ever suffer from dry firing. However, snap caps are not expensive or scarce, so why not add a little insurance?"....

As for the lever, run 4 or 5 cases of ammo through the thing and see what happens. My guess is it needs some breaking in....

 

[Gearhead Jim]

That's a good plan. Of course, those now-functioning ejectors will have my snap caps flying around the room.....

When the barrels were off last night, I noticed that the receiver seems pretty well sealed up. It would be nice to clean and lube inside there but I don't want to remove any of those narrow-slot screws. It looks like removing the wood screw at the rear of the trigger guard, and the big nut/bolt inside the buttstock, would allow the wood to be removed. Correct? Would that allow any access into the receiver?

 

[Dave McCracken]

(Scratching my old grey head) Darnfino, no smith am I.Try down in the Smithy Forum, they should be able to help. Sorry....

Doubles of both kinds can be heck for the tyro to get into running blind. Some guidance here would be invaluable.

A couple doubles I had just needed a screw through the tang and topstrap undone to remove the stocks, but YMMV.

 

[mod12]

browning sxs

in 1970 my bride to be bought me a new skb 200e for a wedding gift. i looked at it and a browning sxs. as i recall browning wasn't offering a 20 ga. at that time. i wanted a 20 and that browning 12 should have been furnished with a set of wheels so that you could tow it up the hills in s.e. ohio. would have been fine in a duckblind or pheasant field but not my idea of a grouse gun. sorry that sxsman had to part with his skb. i wouldn't part with mine or the giver for anything. mine is bored for 3" shells but will never fire one in it. i feel that long chambers are part of the reason why you cant find a shotgun that weighs 6 lb. 1 oz. of shot is adequate for any upland game. i have an 870 12ga. that i used for ducks and deer. my first gun was a mod 12 16 ga. with a mod. 28" bbl. a gift also from my parents in 1952 on my 17th birthday. in 53 i had the bbl. cut to 24" which made it a true cyl. choke. deadly out to about 22 yds. huntsman how could you have sold those 16 ga. doubles? a dear friend of mine has a fox sterlingworth and an l.c. smith. both 16's great guns. if i could have got my skb in 16 ,i would have. enjoy your double gun. regardless of what anyone says, they're wonderful!

 

[huntsman]

well mod12,
I hunted grouse & woodcock for 20 years with a $175. 16ga fulton 28" imp/mod a great gun .

I guess I started useing the 16ga starting in the mid 70's when I used a buddy's ithica m37 featherwieght for grouse.

My list is mostly cheap guns and most were not what a real 16ga should be and that is 6lb or so.
I also got tired of dealing with short stocks too much drop and short chambers (2-9/16" was 16 ga standard before ww2)and reloading components that were limited.

I had a 16ga lc featherweight that I never shot ,got it through the mail and it was in worse condition than addvertised - so I sent it back.
Add two other 16ga fultons and a nice little hunters special, a 16ga AA silver 2 o/u, winchester M37 16ga, and an Ithica NID 16 I had a while ,
oh and a cherry rem 870 1970's vintage with a mod and imp barrels.

I sold most, traded 2 for a 12ga BSS and never looked back Now I can get 1-1/8 oz RTS for a good price , I reload 1-1/4 oz heavy hunting loads and YES my BSS is heavy but only a 1/4lb heavier than most of the 16's I owned.

 

[Gearhead Jim]

After a couple of sweaty afternoons patterning, using AA 3- 1 1/8- 8 at 40 yds, here are some results:

1. The Briley chokes work as advertised, pattern percentages are good for Full, Modified, IC, Skeet. The Extra Full tube is a bit too much, it actually threw slightly looser patterns than Full and now resides in my junk drawer.

2. Right barrel shoots about 3" high, left barrel about 6" high. I can live with that.

3. The two barrels throw patterns that diverge- the right barrel shoots about 4" right, the left barrel shoots about 5" left, so the difference between the two barrels is about 9" at 40 yds. Not very good, by my standards. Or am I being too pickey? Any practical way to fix it?

 

[Dave McCracken]

No practical way to fix divergences, alas. That's not unusual, I'd live with it. You may improve this a bit(equal chances of worsening) by trying out other loads.

One guy I knew said that using oz loads reduced his divergence probs. YMMV, but give it a shot.

 

[mod12]

briley chokes

if if was getting well distributed 40" patterns at 40 yds. from full and mod. chokes, and the bbls were that close, i would hang a blue ribbon on the gun and never let go of it. i can't shoot that well anyway. i believe that the vast majority of us over estimate the distance at which we shoot at game. one year i started to actually walk off the distance from where i fired to where i picked up the grouse. unfortunately, like most of my good intentions,i slacked off midway thru the season. however, on about 12 to 15 birds the range was under 20yds. on quite a few it was under 15 yds. on longer shots, due to the cover i couldn't shoot anyway. those were only sound flushes. i used imp cyl/mod in my 20 and a true cyl. bore in my 16. many days i never fired the mod. bbl. screw in those skeet and imp/cyl chokes and after the first season the grouse will just walk out of the woods with their wings in the air! sounds like a great gun to me.

 

[mod12]

1 oz. loads

interesting comment.about 1975 k-mart {the good old days} put low brass federal 20 ga. shells on sale at the end of rabbit season, for 1.95 a box. i bought 10 boxes. about a week later i discovered that they were7/8 oz. loads. never the less, i used them. i had always used 1 oz. shells. those feds. were more than adequate for my purposes, and a delight to shoot. i'll bet they weren't doing more than 1100 ft/sec but when i put the muzzle on em they fell down. when i ran out i looked everywhere but could never find them again. maybe the lower pressures would have an effect on convergence. i just do not like high brass heavy loads. i'm a sissy, i don't even like 1 1/8 oz. loads in my 16.

 

[45auto]

As mentioned, I would try different loads first. That would be the cheapest fix. It's a "pain", but given the alternatives, I would make every effort to 'adjust through loads and choke tubes.
Pattern at 20 and 30 yards for divergence and POI. A couple of inches here or there isn't going to make a difference.
Shoot some skeet, trap and sporting and see how it really works.
If you are smoking targets at skeet and trap, don't ever pattern it again.

As far as shooting high, you can lower the stock a bit if you wish. A 3" difference in height between the two bbls is not significant.
In fact, for the second shot at a greater distance, it would be an advantage. Shot also "drops" like bullets at distances.

I believe Briley sells 'eccentric' chokes to correct bbl divergence. I would talk to them. To some degree with certain chokes anyway. I don't think this is a cheap option, but I'm not sure.

 

[huntsman]

jim did you pattern you gun before it went to briley ?
if you didn't have this problem before then it should be briley who fixes it.
I can't believe they bored and threaded out of round, so maybe the tubes loosened up, a SXS is regulated to cross patterns but I can't remember at what range , you problem may be more than finding the right load.

 

[Gearhead Jim]

The gun had been patterned when I first bought it, but the combination of my sloppy technique, and the looseness of the original patterns (the "Full" choke threw slightly better than modified) makes a precise comparison difficult.
My guess is that Briley did not mis-align the chokes.

Some time soon I plan to retest the patterning with the Full tube from both barrels, using a dab of white paint on top of the receiver to act as a rear sight. I know that this is not a rifle, but minor differences in head position can make a big difference in where the pattern centers. Same thing with sunlight from the side on a rounded front bead. BTW, the Full tube throws 79% at 40 yds with the AA 3- 1 1/8- 8 loads.

I'm wondering how serious a 4"-5" divergance on either side is, and how common it is to have that amount. Mod12 posted above that he would be happy with that, personally I haven't patterned any double guns to see how they really are regulated.

 

[huntsman]

if you suspect mounting problems, try it with both eyes closed in front of the mirror . Mount gun as you would on a flush open your eyes and try to observe your form ,eye should be directly above rib, neck straight with cheek along comb. One of my bad habits is I tend to bend the neck and roll the cheek on top the comb.

when you describe your pattern as being off 5" are you going from center of pattern ? and how are you patterning ?

 

[mod12]

'

 

[Gearhead Jim]

mod12-
The text of your last post did not show up, can you please repost?

huntsman-
Forgot to mention, I checked the tubes and they were tight.
Your test for proper mounting technique is good, I'll try that. But to learn more precisely where the gun is patterning (divergance), I'm trying to shoot it like a rifle to get each shot the same. A better shotgunner would be consistant enough to do it with normal mounting, but that's not me.

To determine the center of the pattern, I use a template with a 30" circle. Place it over what looks like the center of the pattern and count how many pellets in each quarter. If the counts are not similar for each quarter, move the circle and count again. Distance is 40 yards.

Still looking for other folk's experience on how much divergance is common at 40 yards on a double gun.....

 

[mod12]

browning sxs

i've never tested my skb as you describe. would just take it to skeet range and shoot 4 or 5 rounds of skeet prior to opening of grouse season and occasionally a round or two during season. i don't know what you hunt, if you're pass shooting ducks or geese you might be affected by the divergence of your center of pattern, but again when you consider that the error is 1 1/4 ins. at 10 yds., 2 1/2 at 20 yds. 3 3/4 at 30 and 5 at 40 from the left bbl-1,2,3,4 ins. at corresponding yardage from the right, this is miniscule compared to any error you may make in mounting or lead estimation when firing at game. if you are that concerned, i would fire from a rest to ensure the positioning was constant while testing. the amount of clothing you wear will have a significant effect on point of impact. here in ohio we have a 5 mo. season, oct. 10 to feb. 28. in mid dec. when i started wearing a heavier jacket i could notice a change. whether it was due to being a tad slower or mounting the gun differently i can't really say. i've always maintained that range estimation is the bugaboo in shotgunning. i,ve had my boys stand on the 40,50, 60, and 100 yd. lines after practice. you'd be amazed how far away they are. i don't know how any one can shoot a rifle and hit any thing at 300 or 400 yds. if you shoot that well you should be at vandalia shooting in the grand national. i'd take that gun to the trap and skeet range and see how i shot. if the birds don't break up to your abilities then i'd worry about the gun. heck, you'll have a lot more fun than shooting at an old piece of paper! sometimes we get caught up in trivia!

 

[Gearhead Jim]

mod12-
Thanks for the re-post. I'm getting back into pheasant hunting after a lapse of several years, so I don't really have a baseline for how many clays I should expect to break. Your other points are good, the only thing that makes the divergance an issue is that this gun patterns so well (with the AA load). The Full choke barrel really could be used to bring down a cripple at 40 yards if the #6 loads do as well.

 

[mod12]

40 yard shots

around 1955, at the tag end of the halcyon years of pheasant hunting in s.w. ohio, a friend and i went hunting down around washington ct. house ohio. i had my dads' mod. 24 winchester with 28" bbls. bored mod. and full. 12 ga 1 1/4oz. rem. express #6. neither of us had a bird tho we each had shots. they were flushing wild way out. late in the afternoon some hunters in an adjoining field kicked one out and really gave him a sendoff. never ruffled a feather. it flew directly over me. waaaaaaay up there. i just threw up my gun and yanked the rear trigger. that bird collapsed!i was the most surprised hunter in the county. another time i was duck hunting with an experienced duck hunter at delaware dam no. of columbus where i grew up. a line of bluebills came by out past the furthest deke which bill had set at an estimated 40 yds. the ducks were beyond that. i tried a sustained lead on the first one in the skein. a duck two from the back end fell out. i burned about box of shells {no. 5 shot} chasing him in the boat and taking a poke at him every time he popped up. bill had a mod. 12, 12ga. choked full and he could put them in the water! he laughed till he cried. i'm more of a point shooter and try to "paint" the target with a swing thru. poa is important on close flushing game, but i believe that pattern is the most critical thing. of course a pattern wildly off is no good but even if you fringe a grouse it will come down. those rascals can run like a pheasant tho.

 

[Gearhead Jim]

More careful patterning at 40 yards shows that the right barrel shoots 4" right and 6" high, the left barrel shots 3" left and 3" high. Closer than I can hold in real life.

This is done with the front bead just "balanced" on top of the receiver, if I bring my head down any lower the bead starts to disappear.

Trap shoot at the club this weekend, looking forward to eating clay birds for dinner....

 

[Dave McCracken]

Thanks for the update, Jim. I'd just live with it, if the shotgun works for you.