Chalk one up for freedom: NYC Sued Over Police Subway Bag Searches

[Lone_Gunman]

Here we have the ACLU actually doing the right thing for once! I hope they are successful in their lawsuit.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050804/ap_on_re_us/transit_security_lawsuit

 

[Desertdog]

Maybe the ACLU officials will be the victims of the first bombs that they helped get through to the mass transit systems .

Probaly not though, they are probobaly driven home in chauffered limos.

 

[RooK]

Desertdog, you better hope the ACLU wins. It isn't a far jump from searching people's possessions at random without PC for subways to searching your car without PC for public highways.

 

[Justin]

DD- You might have a point, if not for the fact that these sorts of searches are instituted primarily as a way to placate the public into believing that the police are "keeping us safe" and not because there are any real-world gains in stopping terrorists from blowing stuff up.

New York's subway system provides nearly 5 million rides on the average weekday. The city is not releasing precise figures, but the Times reports police are searching "thousands" of bags a day. Even allowing for the fact that not every rider carries a bag, the chance that any given bag will be selected for a search is minuscule.

-Is Your Fanny Pack Breeding Terrorists? by Jacob Sullum

 

[DelayedReaction]

This is one of the reasons that, the moment I join the NRA, I'm also joining the ACLU. Both organizations, though flawed, are ultimately fighting for the same thing.

If we're going to spend money on security, it shouldn't be spent on placebos.

 

[Pilgrim]

I think the big issue here is that the NYPD decided to search baggage without any enabling legislation authorizing such searches. Who decides where these searches will take place next?

Pilgrim

 

[Rebar]

Both organizations, though flawed, are ultimately fighting for the same thing.

The ACLU only fights for their own agenda, which is distinctly tilted to the left. Look at their stance on the 2nd amendment for an example.

 

[Technosavant]

I admit I am torn on this one.

On one hand, I do think that the ACLU goes out of their way to louse things up; their leftist agenda causes them to be hell-bent on ruining some parts of this nation.

On the other hand, I agree that these searches are ludicrous. Using public transportation should not be considered as granting consent to a search. The next step WILL be random searches of vehicles on public roads.

I think the conservative commentators are coming down on the wrong side of this one. This might well save lives, but it is far more likely to take us down a path where life isn't as worthwhile anymore.

 

[ACORN]

Has the ACLU ever sued to stop DUI "Checkpoints"? The parallels are obvious. While the safety of the people as a whole may be improved, the individuals rights are violated. No probable cause, just that they want to check you out.
"Your papers, Please"

 

[Logistics]

I just find it simply incredible that so many people in this so called "America" still find "law enforcement" to be a worthy profession. When was the last time you ever, EVER heard a cop saying he woulden't do a search because it was against his oath? They recruit kids these days SO young that they don't know what they are getting into, then in a few years they have a family, pension, and house over their heads paid for by good ole uncle sam and the police state. How can you POSSIBLY say "no" to a search when all of your personal well being is directly related too your unconstitutional searches and seizures justified by your employer? How do people just get it through their heads that working for the govt is NOT a worthy profession??? Why not actually go out in the world and produce something instead of being a leach onto society? Anyone else feel this way?

 

[Henry Bowman]

Why not actually go out in the world and produce something instead of being a leach onto society? Anyone else feel this way?

Perhaps even leaches serve an important, if unrecognized, place in our socio-political ecosystem.


Views on this subject (searches) help to define the differences between "conservative" and "libertarian." I am very conservative, but I'm becoming more and more libertarian every day.

 

[scubie02]

90% of the jobs out there don't "produce" anything. Sure, we'd all love to be custom cabinet makers or sculptors or write thr great american novel. But then reality kicks in and you get by. I do think that its hard for most cops to say they think something is wrong, but that's true of most jobs. My bosses pull just despicable crap regularly, but you can't just quit if you can't find something else that will allow you to pay the bills.

I actually DO know at least one cop who quit in disgust, and know another who privately told me he is thinking about what else he could do, because he's uncomfortable with the way things are starting to go and with unethical things he sees done. There are still some good ones.

But there do seem to be more thugs and disreputable types these days who enter law enforcement. I'm a teacher and we were doing honor society interviews recently for prospective candidates--if you have the grades, you are eligible now--you aren't allowed to automatically not consider one for character or silly things like that (there is a general vote though where that CAN come into play). Anyway, we were interviewing this one who is pretty much totally morally bankrupt, has been caught cheating repeatedly, answered the question of "what would you like to see change here at school or in society" with "people need to learn to relax, what's it matter if you are late to school or smoke some pot, its not really a big deal"., and when we asked him what he wanted to do as a career in the future, I was sitting there thinking "how much do you want to bet he says law enforcement" and BINGO, that is exactly what he said...*sigh*...unfortunately I havwe seen that over and over.

 

[rick_reno]

This suit might have some luck in the lower courts - in the end I'm pretty sure they'll lose.

 

[Rebar]

But there do seem to be more thugs and disreputable types these days who enter law enforcement.

How did this thread go from random searches of bags on the NYC subway, to cop bashing?

Newsflash - the searches were implimented by the politicians, not the police. If you need to bash someone, bash them.

 

[Lone_Gunman]

the searches were implimented by the politicians, not the police. If you need to bash someone, bash them.

I agree. Police bashing was not my intention in this thread, and really has nothing to do with it.

I also did not mean to imply I thought the ACLU was some great organization. They selectively support some rights, and ignore others.

But in this case, I am willing to take help from anyone who will give it, and am glad the ACLU has taken this case up. Random subway searches must be stopped, and our politicians need to know this kind of thing won't be tolerated.

There is no difference between a random subway search without cause and a random search for standing on a city right of way or public road. Once we get accustomed to that, its only a small step away from being randomly searched in privately owned institutions that are open to the public, like malls, sports arenas, etc. Our children are already being indoctrinated into allowing for random searches, as they occur daily at schools (public and private).

 

[Werewolf]

In this case the ACLU is doing the right thing. In fact - IMO - they normally do the right thing. Their only real fault is their stand on the 2nd Amendment which I have never been able to understand considering their stand on all the others.

That said:

Think frog...
Think kettle...
Think warm water in kettle...
Think frog in warm water in kettle...
Think fire under kettle...

That's really what the searches are all about at the macro level. The police aren't at fault they're just doing what they're told (think Nuremburg).

 

[Rebar]

In fact - IMO - they normally do the right thing.

I disagree - also look at their stand against the Minutemen, and their harrasment of them.

Their view of "civil rights" is very, very selective, only issues those which advance their hard-left agenda are taken on.

 

[Lone_Gunman]

Rebar, as you pointed out this thread was not about cop bashing, but I would ask you to remember it isnt about ACLU bashing either.

It is about freedom. The ACLU is doing the right thing here. I hope you agree with that?

 

[Henry Bowman]

While the price of freedom is still high (think military casualties and deaths, the risk that a citizen or visitor may act out in a deadly way), the perceived value seems to be at an all time low. I.e., no level of risk is an acceptable price to pay for something we don't even use.

 

[Rebar]

It is about freedom. The ACLU is doing the right thing here. I hope you agree with that?

Actually, not really. I think the whole thing is overblown and some folks are getting hysterical over nothing.

We submit to 100% searches whenever getting on an airplane, up to and including strip searches, without screams of "totalitarianism" or the ACLU suing the airline companies. Now some will say it's different, the subway is for the "public" while airlines are "private". Yet it's government employees who do the searching, and there are plenty of reasons for an expectation of safety when using the subway.

A feel-good policy by one city for one method of transportation is hardly the beginning of the apocolypse. I bet that even without being sued, they would have called off the searches in a few weeks anyway, since it's obviously unworkable. If the people of NYC really don't like the searches, let them kick the politicians responsible out of office. That's how democracy works. Of course the ACLU doesn't give a damn about democracy.

The ACLU is just grandstanding with this, and their record shows their true agenda.

 

[Justin]

When was the last time you ever, EVER heard a cop saying he woulden't do a search because it was against his oath?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure we've got several of 'em volunteering their time as mods on this forum.

 

[scubie02]

How did this thread go from random searches of bags on the NYC subway, to cop bashing?

It was not my intention to "cop bash"--apparently you read over my first statements that basically said they are no worse than anyone else.

I was simply stating that, at least in my area, there DO seem to be more cops of less than savory character, or of a different character than in the past. Sorry, thats my observation. Still a few good ones, more not so good ones. But then, thats people in general.

 

[Mad Man]

I don't want to dwell on constitutional analysis, because our view has never been that civil liberties are necessarily coextensive with constitutional rights. Conversely, I guess the fact that something is mentioned in the Constitution doesn't necessarily mean that it is a fundamental civil liberty.

Nadine Strossen
President of the American Civil Liberties Union
"Life, Liberty, and the ACLU"
Reason, October 1994



followup: Letters in the January 1995 issue

 

[dolanp]

We lose all of our rights, including our firearms rights, through the apathy towards the incrementalist approach. That's why the ACLU is so hard against even the smallest step towards something bigger and much uglier. I have issues with them, but this action I support.

 

[Mad Man]

Finally, there are many organizations that endorse gun prohibition but are not primarily concerned with the gun issue. For example, Common Cause is probably best known for its efforts to reform campaign financing. However, in a 1972 statement presented to a House Judiciary Subcommittee, the organization endorsed a "total ban on the sale and manufacture of all handguns" as well as a proposal that "private ownership of handguns also be prohibited." Likewise the U.S. Conference of Mayors, the Unitarian Universalist Association, the American Civil Liberties Union, Americans for Democratic Action, the National Alliance for Safer Cities, the National Board of the Young Women's Christian Association of the U.S.A., and the International Ladies Garment Workers' Union have all at some time endorsed banning the private possession of handguns. 37

37. Gottlieb, The Gun Grabbers, 97; Joseph D. Alviani and William R. Drake, Handgun Control...Issues and Alternatives (Washington, D.C.: U.S. Conference of Mayors, 1975), 45-46. The ACLU has explicitly abandoned support for prohibition, or for any form of gun control.

Gary Kleck
"Absolutist Politics in a Moderate Package: Prohibitionist Intentions of the Gun Control Movement"
Journal on Firearms and Public Policy Vol. 13 (Fall 2001)
PDF copy available at http://saf.org/jfpp/jfpp13.pdf (about 1 MB)