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CHECK YOUR GUNSAFE! We all have the same guns!!!

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by cpileri, Sep 27, 2004.

  1. cpileri

    cpileri Well-Known Member

    CHECK YOUR GUNSAFE! We all have the same guns!!!

    OK, we don’t really. But I was thinking the other day about some of the topics posted on the forums. Often enough, there’s a ‘what if the SHTF or TEOTWAWKI happened’ thread. I actually read those, since sometimes they touch on interesting ideas. Not as often anymore, but sometimes.

    What follows is a short story, then a question, then a big idea that involves cooperation and money…

    I thought of my own twist on the subject and imagined living in a future further down the slippery slope toward socialism than we are now, with a less strong but very oppressive government- a more likely and complex SHTF world: since without OVERT conflict, no popular guerrilla movement will erupt for us all to embrace. It will just be a slow and steady erosion of our remaining rights. My imagined world is one where outright ownership and possession of firearms has YET to be outlawed, but there is no more importation, or domestic manufacture of any firearms, ammunition, or components. It’s a dead and dying trade and culture. The ‘gun lifestyle’ is all but halted.
    The writing is on the wall: soon an outright ban, the BIG BAN, is going to be introduced to the House and the invited representatives from Ethiopia, Rwanda, China, Jordan etc who sit in the seats will all vote for it that’s for sure.
    Yup, the BIG BAN is coming. (None of them read UC. J )
    So, what that means is whatever we had at the start of ‘the halt’ is what we are stuck with for the rest of our lives, short as that may be.
    So what we really suffer from is a lack of supply, to simplify greatly.
    So now I’m thinking that if we pretend that this future is inevitable, we should be planning NOW to have A LOT of the stuff we will need at that time. Which brings me to the topic of the thread:
    We all need to have the same guns.
    Sure, you can have as many of whatever type you want. But we all (all gunowners, but I’ll settle for all 12,000 THR/TFL/AK-47.net/etc members to start with) need to have a battery not only in common with each other, but of common arms, common calibers, and of simple weapons with lots of spare parts if possible.
    This way when you find yourself exiled and arrive in my town with no food and 2 rounds left in your AR-15, I can do the right thing and get you some food and ammo without endangering my own family. I’d rather say, “You need an extractor? Sure thing, buddy.†Than “Yes, you ARE the only one with a Cei-Rigotti Automatic Rifle.â€

    Now, the important part: which ones?
    Here’s where the discussion/flames begin as I will now offer my own opinion as to what the choices should be. Errors in my judgement can arise from lack of sample size (12,000 out of the 40-80 million gun owners), lack of experience (I have only been at this a few years, not decades like some of you lucky ducks), and biased sample (people on this forum have different tastes than say those who frequent cowboy shooting forums- generally speaking of course).

    Well, the caliber discussion should be easier. My caliber choices are 22LR, 357 Magnum, 9x19mm, .223, 7.62x39, 308, 30-06, and 12ga.

    I suppose I will get more agreement out of the calibers than the guns themselves. It hurt to leave out certain ones. I sure love my 45ACP and there are a lot of 1911’s out there but I can’t believe that they outnumber the 9mm pistols anymore. 30-30 is pretty common, and if I am wrong that the 308 and 30-06 are more ubiquitous than it then I will change my list. But for right now I’ll stick with these. Hopefully, by the time this thread is over there will be a concensus on the calibers and platforms.
    Most common is defined not as the one of which the most were manufactured, but as the one that the most people own.
    In 22LR it’s the Ruger 10/22. I know, here it comes and I have my flame resistant suit on. Is this or is this not the most common 22LR, with the most available parts, and of sufficient quality to make the list?

    In 357 I am at a loss. How about the S&W 686?? Another? The 357 is common and allows 38 ammo to be used. And whichever one we pick, I will need to get one as well!

    9x19 has to be a Glock 17 or 19. Ugly as they are, they are reliable out of the box with a TON of parts and accessories, simple manufacture- hard to argue with thos egood points. And yes, I will need to get one as well.

    It has to be an AR-variant in 223. One with lots of parts in common and interchangeability: Armalite, Bushmaster, Colt, DPMS? Help me out here.
    Ammo supplies will be most available despite the introduction of the 6.8 and with foreign nations using 308 or 7.62.
    You guessed it, I need one too!.

    Not hard to guess that an AK-variant is the 7.62x39 of choice given my criteria. Why enter the 223 vs 7.62 argument when it is obvious that lots and lots and lots of folks have at least one if not both already. With the surplus ammo now available, stocking up for The Halt and BIG BAN is easy. Having one of each, esp w/ AK’s very reasonably priced, is the way to go to my way of thinking.

    308 and 30-06? Why both? Well, for the same reasons as above really but we’re moving on to bigger rifles. The 308, while not as common as the 30-06, is more common to militaries in the world and in our own, so ammo and platforms will be available whereas in the super-popular 30-06, it’s the common gun and parts that keeps it from standing alone in this contest.
    Platforms I cant decide on: Remington 700 or Winchester Model 70? I would guess the Remington, but I’ll take lessons on this one. There are a lot of 308 battle rifles out there, but my hunch ois that more sheer numbers favor the bolt action owners.

    Of course 12ga: 870 or Mossberg 500, with the 87- winning out. WhoooHooo, I have one of those!
    So there it is, the list.
    1. Ruger 10/22
    2. S&W 686 (?)
    3. Glock 17/19
    4. AR-15
    5. AK-variant
    6. Rem 700 (in 308 and 30-06) , and
    7. 870 in 12ga
    There, that’s only 9 guns we all have to own.
    Which brings up my challenging big idea involving cooperation and money: we all, every single one of us, needs to go out and BUY them.
    This only works if we all do it!
    Not that these are terribly expensive guns, but its hard to get folks to agree on what to spend their money on, even harder to tell a group of freedom-loving individualists what to do, and harder still to get them to do it!

    So, are these the guns we all agree on and are we doing it or not?

    OK, I’m ready: let em rip!

  2. White Horseradish

    White Horseradish Well-Known Member

    I would go for an SKS before an AK for the 7.62x39. It's a better all-around rifle and cheaper.

    As to the rest of your list, I'm working on it. ;)
  3. MikeK

    MikeK Well-Known Member

    I'm off to a good start. 5 (or close enough) out of 7. Of course a .22 revolver wouldn't be bad to add to the collection.
  4. Zundfolge

    Zundfolge Well-Known Member

    cpileri, you're over complicating it.

    All you need is one gun ... a handgun.

    If it comes to a full on "time to refresh the tree of liberty" time then you walk up to a soldier ... make some small talk ... offer him a cigarette and ask him if he's got a light ... when he takes his eyes off you to get his lighter BANG! you shoot him in the head and take his weapon/ammo (because your UN friends aren't going to disarm their military, so someone will be making guns ... just not for sale to us serfs).

    Then you give your handgun to an unarmed friend and the process repeats itself ... eventually you and your buddies work your way up to bigger and bigger guns.

    If you're going to take on a government and its military you use their equipment.

    That was the point of the .45 Liberator in WWII ... thats the most likely way it will go down in this dystopian future of yours.
  5. jobu07

    jobu07 Well-Known Member

    That's a very interesting idea about commonality of parts, firearms, and ammo amongst the gunnies when the shtf. One worth putting thought into. Develop it some more and take it a little deeper. :) Ya might be on to something.
  6. fistful

    fistful member

    Hey folks, the market works!

    I thought the title of this thread was a fact.


    I have a 10/22, a S & W Model 19, an 870, and a Mauser. Post a reply if you don't have one of these guns. Post a reply if you don't have one of these calibers (the Mauser is a .30-06, the 870 is a 12 guage).

    What I'm trying to say is, we all have the same guns in the same calibers anyway. Success sells.

    I'll probably buy an AK at some point, because I want one. Most people who are preparing for the SHTF/TEOTWAWKI want one, too. No need to go out and buy guns that you personally don't want or need.

    Be a cold day in Maui when there's some soulless Mod. 700, Glock or AR in my arsenal, anyway! :cool: Ok, maybe a Glock.
  7. cpileri

    cpileri Well-Known Member


    OK, we vote with our wallets and the manufacturers see what we're up to; so we convince them of the BIG MOMMA of group buys (can you imagine 12 thousand in a group buy!) if they make up high caps for EVERYTHING. 50-rd glock mags? drums? double feed drums? polymer? no problem? how many? Oh, 12,000; sure!
    Accessories (flash hiders, muzzle brakes, night sights, l;asers, sof grips, kydex holsters modular with any other gear, etc), fix-it kits (i.e a packet of all the parts most likely to break/fail first in each gun, with tools nmecessary for the repair and instructions laminated on a card, all in one kit), etc.
    So that there is absolutely NO wanting for standard capacity mags, specialty devices, etc- and they all interchange with 12 thousand other folks stuff.

    "Hey, Zundfolge, i kaboomed my Glock 17. Can you use my 60-rd drum mags, extended barrel and night sights. Sure, cpileri, I'll trade you my..."

    Startin' to see the picture!

  8. aquapong

    aquapong Well-Known Member

    Cmon man...everyone knows it's only the .40 Glocks that KB.:D

    You've got an interesting idea man. However with so many people, I think you'll find it hard to even narrow it down to your list of calibers. There will be people that won't give up their .45ACP, .270, .300 Win Mag, .30-30's, etc. I like to keep as few calibers as possible though. Right now I've only got .357mag, 9mm, 7.62x39, and .22lr. I want to get a deer rifle in .357mag to keep the same calibers even though I would prefer something else. I would love a K31 to fill those shoes, but the ammo is already expensive and isn't widely available and it would become more so as time goes on.

    Just for fun, here's my picks.

    1. Marlin 25N (covered)
    2. Taurus 605 (covered)
    3. Glock 19 (covered x2)
    4. HK M4gery
    5. Yugo SKS (covered x2) or Sar 1
    6. FAL
    7. Winchester 1300
  9. Tharg

    Tharg Well-Known Member

    Man - guess i'm just suckin... <grin>

    finally got a 10/22 cause i'd heard so much about em - seems everyone has one - and its not a bad lil gun if i stay away from the super cheap bricks of 22lr. The CCI stuff in the plastic cases tends to fire ok w/o jamming since i started using it. (still use the other stuff for plinking around - heheh)

    Got my wheelgun - just can't beat it for reliability. Got it in a Taurus Tracker w/ a 4" ported barrel... shoots dem dere .357's and 38 specials... nice having a gun that can shoot two different kinds of ammo - and is virtually gurantee'd to fire.

    Got my 12ga... el cheapo mossie from wally world. Ran the pump through 100+ rounds on the first day and nary a problem w/ it... even hit a few o' those clays.. <eg>

    Got a .410 - mostly cause it was a learner shotty for the now moved out idiotic (long story) kid...

    We both (me and gf) got our .40's... hers a taurus i don't much care for and mine a HK USP compact... which i do really care for. =) heheh.

    .380 thrown in for good luck. 30.06 for hunting etc... altho it rarely gets fired.

    then one of my favorites (don't know why i just like it a lot) my Ruger Mini-14.

    Of course last but not least is my ol reliable. Old Marlin 22lr passed down from my grandfather through my dad to me. If ya miss w/ that bolt action 22... its you ... not the gun =)

    There is the fun gun from my dad... don't like its reliability enough to think of it as a primary rifle... 1894 in 45LC... for some reason it doesn't cycle the rounds correctly when they are actually fired. Seems to do fine on cold rounds emptying the mag etc... just not when its fired... dunno - shame - i like the gun =)

    Couple of blackpowder sixguns and a 50 cal old style muzzleloader that would scare the dogsnot outta someone... but not quite as quick as my others... hehe

    over all i guess i got....

    Seems good enough for now... after all - i won't be shooting "nato legal rounds" if i were in that shooting scenario. =)


  10. chaim

    chaim Well-Known Member

    In all the repressive government/rebellion "SHTF" threads people assume a battle rifle or "assault rifle". I think that is going the wrong way. Sure, it looks military, but it isn't. It doesn't have full-auto capability. Even if it did, us untrained guys will be in for a hurting slugging it out with trained military (I know, many of us were/are trained military, but we won't have the full force of the UN military behind us). Our best bet for survival is to blend in and show when conditions are favorable. In such an unfavorable environment carrying your AK, AR, FAL, whatever and wearing camo will make you stand out for harrassment (at best). With the semi-auto civilian versions of those rifles you don't get much extra utility anyway. I would think the best way to go is a nice BAR with a bunch of mags, a nice lever rifle (a trained hand with a lever rifle can shoot nearly as fast as a semi-auto) or a nice bolt rifle to avoid drawing too much attention. When/if it ever became time to re-supply ammo from the soldiers then it is time to take their full-auto military weapons as well.

    As for what guns-
    9mm or .45acp...I don't think it matters much since a handgun probably won't get as much use. However, if it is US troops you are looking at then maybe the Beretta 92 is the way to go simply so you can more easily scavenge. If foreign troops, use what they use. Also, for scavenging maybe 9mm is the way to go (and you could carry more ammo with you).

    Revolver- I'd go snub (probably an airweight .38spl) in an ankle holster. Again, my don't draw attention philosophy (also go as light as possible). However, a nice big .357mag, .41mag, .44mag or .45LC in bear county probably wouldn't draw too much attention either (remember this scenario is the gun atmosphere isn't pleasant but they aren't outright banned yet)

    I think a TC contender or the like would be useful. Again, don't draw attention. Nearly the power and range of a rifle, with the concealment of a large handgun (unlike a rifle, at least you could hide it in a backpack).

    Lever- I prefer the Winchester 94 and there are a ton of them, but the Marlin may take a little more of a beating and is nearly as common. Caliber, as much as I love 30-30 I'd go with a pistol caliber in the caliber of the revolver for ammo compatibility (and with the pistol caliber you could carry a lot more of it since it is smaller and lighter).

    Bolt- I think .308 or .223 for this scenario for scavenging purposes.

    If you must go with military style weapons (and tactics?) then-
    -Revolver- well, we need to go light so either a K-frame .357 or the auto pistol
    -Pistol- again, the Beretta- scavenging.
    -Rifle- AK or SKS. Cheaper than the AR and not everyone has the money for the AR. Ammo is cheap so you could have quite a bit in your bag. When/if you were scavenging parts or ammo from fallen foes, you could always scavenge their gun too when it comes to that.
    -Bolt rifle- Hmm, we have our hands full already, plus we are adding a shotgun. Maybe the bolt rifle should be a TC Contender for those w/ a shotgun and "assault rifle", a .308 Remington, Winchester, Savage, whatever for those w/out either the "assault rifle" or shotgun. Then again, keep it the cheapest good enough gun since not everyone has a lot of money- Savage in .308 or a Mosin-Nagant mil-surplus for under $100 (at that price everyone can afford to add one).
    -Shotgun- Either the Mossberg or Remington should work. However, if we are talking about what everyone should have, go with the cheapest that is good enough (not everyone can afford the best) and get the Mossberg (if you can afford better get the 590 instead of the 500, I think parts are interchangable).
  11. Majic

    Majic Well-Known Member

    One minor point have been left out. In a true SHTF situation and you run out of ammo or break a part, who is going to give you what you need to get back up and running? Remember that will reduce their supply and possibly place them in the same boat you currently sit in.
  12. cracked butt

    cracked butt Well-Known Member

    That's why I would put a mosin nagant and about 4 crates of ammo on the list.
  13. Majic

    Majic Well-Known Member

    .....but let's say you break a firing pin or a mainspring. The rilfe is out of action unless you rob the needed parts from another rifle which in turns will render that one useless.
    That's what I meant when I asked who would supply you with the needed parts to get your weapon back up and running.
  14. cracked butt

    cracked butt Well-Known Member

    Lets jsut say I have a couple of junkers laying around as parts guns anyhow:D
    At any rate, if the rifle could take a 1/2 century of being handled by peasant conscripts, I doubt that I could do anything to make it break.
  15. DesertEagle613

    DesertEagle613 Well-Known Member

    To prepare for such a situation, what we really need is to set up manufacturing capabilities. Lathes, mills, dies, blueprints, lots of steel ingots, the works. We can manufacture our own sten guns for the initial push (harder to trace), and then work with captured munitions if they are better than what we have at first.
  16. cpileri

    cpileri Well-Known Member

    all points well made

    No really, even the disagreements are all points well made.
    But please dont forget the scenario's salient features:
    one, I made this up so suggesting alternate scenarios and not addressing the idea (see point number three below) isn't enjoying the possibilities.
    Two, it is not (yet) a total shtf; more like a SGTHTFPS (S's Going To HTF Pretty Soon). KWIM? (know what I mean?)

    (OK, I'll stop with the acronyms)

    And three, the main point is to wring out a common equipment list for us all. Squad units do it (given a little variation here and there), the tanks and apache helicopters all have interchangeable modular units. Having common stuff if a very good idea. Not only from a resupply standpoint, but from personell standpoint: I now know that there are a bunch of guys out there who not only have the stuff but the INTENT to back me up/help me out if I need it! Gives me warm fuzzies.

    Heaven forbid it should ever come to that! Plans to keep The Halt and BIG BAN from ever manifesting are by far preferable in reality. But again, i made this up. The thought was just to try to get us all with some common gear.

    And I see already what i predicted in that there is a fair amount of agreement in calibers, but gun choices are varied. So here's the deal with that: maybe a taurus 357 would be preferable for its cost, nice quality, etc BUUUUUUUT are there more of them in existence than S&W's?
    When i tried to pick one, I deferred to the one with that was most ubiquitous ALREADY. After finding a quality arm, the winner was the most widespread -majority rules- and too bad that I still had a few to go out and buy.
    And for all who are on tight budgets, it will help that for every few of us that never have the whole list there is still a guy out there who does, or has most of it, and can STILL resupply you without seriously weakening himself, even if you can't do the same for him with every gun.

    I mean, there are only so many extra shoelaces in a squad, right? But it sure helps to have a few. And hopefully, not everyone's shoelaces will snap at the same time!

    While manufacturing our own STEN's is a super idea- I always did want one myself- it is nowhere right now and would start up as a cottage industry at first: not at all meeting the common-and-popular requirement.

    I DO think the manufacturing idea is spot on, though, and the only for sure way to keep any resistance going in the long run (much easier than scavenging from felled enemies, too).

    So back to the list of specific arms...
  17. Daniel964

    Daniel964 Well-Known Member

    1. Ruger 10/22
    2. S&W 686 (?)
    3. Glock 17/19
    4. AR-15
    5. AK-variant
    6. Rem 700 (in 308 and 30-06) , and
    7. 870 in 12ga

    I don't own amy of these . Now what.

    I do own a weapon in each caliber listed except .223.
  18. PAshooter

    PAshooter Well-Known Member

    Good points - and a pretty good list cpileri. My .357 vote would go for a 4" stainless GP100, but other than that...
  19. crawfish

    crawfish Well-Known Member

    Amazing the responses here. I guess for the generation it happens to it would work but if this really comes to pass there will be a time when there is no more loaded ammo, no primers, and no smokeless powder. Unless the old technology of flint lock black powder firearms in re-discovered your descendents will be using all those useless pieces of metal and plastic as clubs. So what we are really looking at is a way to save the information so it can be used when needed, plus insuring that the information can be understood when it is needed. It does no good to save to CD if there are no computers, like wise in a written format if the general population is illiterate. It is very easy to think in the here and now (your lifetime). What about your grandkids?
  20. WEPS

    WEPS Well-Known Member

    White Horseradish

    i would have to argue the fact that the SKS is better than an AK.

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