Common "Battle Rifle" Longevity/Dependability?

[Slamfire]

Slamfire1, you do know that the helicopter turbine and the tank turbine are the same engine, right?)

Tanks previous to the M1 Abrams used diesel engines. I assume the tanker was referring to an M60 engine as he was too young to have been in T48's.

I would be curious to know the over haul life time of an Abrams turbine.

 

[mljdeckard]

They are checked by battalion level maintenence twice a year. It's mostly the fuel control systems and transmission synch that are tweaked. (It takes twelve gallons of fuel to start it, and the transmission is much larger and more complicated than the turbine.) I never heard of one needing to be overhauled or replaced. (Turbine engines are pretty simple, and the stakes are lower for a ground vehicle than an aircraft.)

 

[RP88]

AR-15. If it doesn't last as long as an M14 or FAL, it will make up for it with logistics that make either fixing it or even scrapping it for a new rifle easy and simple.

 

[NavyEngineer]

Navy ships still use M-14s today. Granted, they are mainly used for shooting lines to other ships during replenishment, but I have never seen one go down hard in my 21 years of experience with them.

 

[benEzra]

you can get galling and seizing very quickly.

You have not shot the ac556 have you?

No, but I did shoot a 188-series Ranch Rifle for a decade and a half and got galling on the bolt, and it was NOT neglected. I did switch from Rem Oil to a high quality grease, and that helped, but stainless mini's (at least) were not very tolerant of the lubrication drying out.

I don't know if AC556's used off-the-shelf mini-14 parts or if they were subject to higher quality control than regular mini's. Although it could just be the time frame; any civilian-transferable AC556 is a 1986 or older, and my Ranch Rifle was a 1989 or 1990.

 

[Don357]

As stated before, the Mini shouldn't even be there,and concerning the rest I believe the AR would be the first to go, then the M1A1/M14, then the FAL, and again the CETME/HK variants, and AK's, even though not included in the poll, would be right in there. As for parts replaceability, having never messed with a FAL, I find a CETME to be easier than an AR, or at least comparable, to change everything except the barrel, and there's no gas tube to worry about.

 

[powermad]

FAL

Ol dirty has gone over 14,000 rounds without cleaning it, thrown in the mud etc.
Still chugging along.

Parts availability and what not for a given gun is a moot point if it takes a crap at an inopportune time.

As to Battle Rifle terminology, I follow most in thinking battle rifles are classed in 7.62x51 and up. IE full power rifle cartridges.

.556 and the 7.62x39 are an intermediate rifle round, thus not in the battle rifle group.
They are in the assault rifle group.

Then again any rig you carry into a fight is a battle rifle.
Battle knife, battle pistol, battle stick, battle rock.

Intermediate guns are simply not in the battle rifle class.
If it is not a full power rifle round it is not classed as a battle rifle.

I have had this debate a few times at work with the AR guys.

It's kinda like grouping small block chevy and big block chevy engines in the same group.

They both have 8 cylinders and for the most part the same components but are vastly different.

Example..
AR10 = Battle rifle.
M16 = assault rifle

It's fun to bitch about though aint it?

As to the mini.... I consider it a range gun or not used very often gun.
I would not consider it for serious work.

 

[Candiru]

To those saying that they wouldn't trust a Mini-14 to stand up to battlefield conditions, what are you basing this statement on?

 

[memphisjim]

i dont consider the min114 a battle rifle
but it has a a very similar action to the m1a and less powerful bullet
i think barrel life is the limiting factor on any of those however
so i pick mini14

 

[Art Eatman]

I've had one M1A (match rifle version); four Minis, and I'm on my fifth AR. Never had an FAL, but I've run maybe a thousand rounds through an HK 91.

Relaibility? Never a problem, although the rifles were always clean and used in relatively "sanitary" conditions. No rain, mud, snow or heavy dust storms.

Accuracy? Plenty accurate for minute-of-torso or -head.

Use in battle conditions? My preference would be for something that could still be a useful weapon if I run out of ammo. So, a bayonet on the front end and seriously sturdy on the other. I went through Basic with a Garand, and I guarantee you that a buttstroke is not something you want to have happen to you.

Anyhow, since the OP's key parameter is "breakage", I'd have to figure the M1A or the FAL is least likely for that.

Odds, speculation, hearsay and guesstimation. Sort of a pointless worry, overall.

Not that I think of the Mini as a "battle rifle", but if it had as much R&D put into it as has the AR, it probably would work just fine. Kinda like car racing: "The only substitute for cubic inches is cubic money." Cubic money has gone into the AR, not the Mini.

 

[GRIZ22]

I voted the Mini 14 whether or not you want to consider it a battle rifle. The agency I worked for had stainless Mini 14s in the 80s. We had some dedicated to qualification use at the range. These were shot a lot, no well maintained but they always worked. After several years we noticed rounds were starting to keyhole from some of them. We sent them off to Ruger and they asked if we knew how many rounds went through these rifles. Number of people qualifying x 60 rounds x 4 times a year x whatever number of years they were in service. We estimated 80-100 K rounds through these rifles. Ruger rebuild and rebarreled them for free and asked us to send them back periodically so they could take measurements.

 

[InkEd]

Everyone keeps saying AR15 becAuse it is easy to repair. I don't think the original post wanted to know about fixing them. The question was which would last the longest without the need for repair. The ak was left off because it would be the land slide winner. Other than some national police groups the mini14 has no real service record. If the m14 was included it would be a different story. Out of the choices given the FAL would be the definitive winner. The m1a would be second. The ar15/m16 platform has become a good gun in recent years but it's no secret they require a good bit of cleaning to stay functional.
Furthermore, many ar fans will admit that even though they love their ar for sport they would pick something else for war. Although alot of that could be do to the ammo issue.

 

[KBintheSLC]

I assume you left "AK" out because it would dominate the poll?

I too was wondering how the little AR got on this list, but the AK was left out. If you want to talk about longevity... you may as well include the endurance king.

Anyway, I suppose that technically anything smaller than a .308 is not really considered a battle rifle. But that seems to be splitting hairs over what is considered an "assault" and what is considered a "battle".

 

[damagedworld]

I am not sure what a "battle rifle" even is.. but i always just considered it a medium range combat type firearm... shy of something "long range" lacking the ability to make the kind of long range shots that a rifle chambered in something like the 308 is capable of..

 

[iyaoyas98]

I'm new here.
Is it really necessary to use quotes everytime someone types "Battle Rifle"?
I thought "Battle Rifle" could stand on it's own.
Kinda like, Battle Rifle........."". <-------- JIC

 

[Fatelvis]

The crown on the M14 and Mini-14 is more likely to get damaged from muzzle cleaning, but I would think they all should last about the same mechanically.

 

[benEzra]

To those saying that they wouldn't trust a Mini-14 to stand up to battlefield conditions, what are you basing this statement on?

I used to own one, and can vouch for the fact that while they are reliable, they are not very tolerant of lack of lubrication, and the skinny barrel on the older models gets hot way too quickly. The forend also gets hot very quickly because the gas system blows 500-1000 degree gas straight into the forestock with every shot.

From John Farnam, who is a rather well respected firearms trainer:

21 Sept 01

>From an LEO friend in Texas on Mini-14s:

"We recently received several Ruger Mini-14 rifles that were donated by a group of local businessmen. While shooting these rifles in training, a couple of things were discovered that may benefit others.

First, lubricating the rifle according to the Ruger instruction manual is not sufficient. Sustained firing heats the metal to the point that oil evaporates, causing the action to bind shortly thereafter. However, by lubricating the friction points with grease, as one would a Garand, function problems were all but eliminated. The manual warns of accumulations of dust and dirt if grease is used, but, with regular maintenance, that can be easily controlled. Temperatures are moderate here, so frigid weather is not a concern.

Secondly: the rear sight that came on these rifles has such a small aperture that shooting with the sun in your face is almost impossible. Low-light shooting is also difficult. We will be acquiring rear sights with larger apertures when the new fiscal year begins."

I still recommend the Mini-14. It does not head the recommend list, but it is perfectly factional, and it is relatively inexpensive when compared with other military rifles. Military rifles are designed for high-volume fire and heavy, strenuous use. Unlike commercial rifles, military rifles are designed to get hot and still remain functional. The Mini-14 is not quite as good as the others in this category, but still acceptable. Grease, instead of oil, is helpful, as we see.

Heading the list of recommended 223 rifles is the Robinson Arms R96. It has been excellent. Heading the list of 308 rifles is the DSA/FAL. None better!

/John




20 Jan 09

"Statistical" arguments about weapons capability:

I recently got into an animated discussion about the Mini-14, and its suitability for serious purposes.

We see a lot of them in our Urban Rifle Courses, because they are relatively inexpensive, and, in all fairness, run fine. We have had few difficulties with them, except for that fact that, when they get hot from a heavy volume of shooting, they still run, but become difficult to handle, particularly owing to the hot forend.

Military-grade rifles are differentiated from commercial-grade rifles in two, major categories. (1) They have a military-specification manual safety that, when "on," renders the rifle mechanically drop-safe, and (2) when hot from heavy shooting, still run, and can continue to be used normally, despite the heat.




31 Mar 00

On the Ruger Mini-14 and other rifles from a range officer in a large, Midwest PD:

"Most commercial Mini-14s come with light barrels which, of course, are definitely not designed for high-volume fire. They heat up rapidly and promptly start stringing shots vertically. Cook-offs are not uncommon. The LE version has a heaver barrel, and that is the one I recommend for defensive purposes.

The configuration of the [government model] Mini-14's front sight is such that it's easy to mistake one of the protective ears on the side for the front blade. When that happens, the student, of course, shoots way off to one side. We see this many times when students are shooting fast and/or in low light. The same thing can happen with the AR-15, but, because of the way the front sight is designed, it is much less likely.

The [AC556-style] folding stock that comes on the Mini-14 sucks! It's too long for my short-statured students, and the metal buttstock is slick and routinely slips off the shoulder. In addition, because of its insubstantial design, a comfortable and repeatable cheek weld is nearly impossible. Folding stocks found on the Galil and the DSA/FN are vastly superior.

The bolt catch wears out quickly. The Mini-14s used by the ______ PD started failing to go to bolt lock on the last round after only 1,500 rounds, and now it is difficult to even lock the bolt to the rear manually.



26 Apr 02

Rifle endurance tests from friends in South Africa:

"We did high-volume testing of 223 and 7.62X39 rifles here last week. We fired one thousand rounds through each as fast as we could insert magazines. We used various brands of ammunition, including Norinco, Russian surplus, and local reloads. Here are the results:

Norinco 56S (Chinese Kalashnikov with a folding stock). Fired one thousand rounds with no stoppages. Forend was warm, but could still be grasped comfortably.

H&K93 (223) went down at seven hundred rounds. No parts breakage. It just stopped working.

Ruger Mini-14 went down at five hundred rounds with a broken recoil spring.

Colt AR-15. Fired one thousand rounds with no stoppages. However, the forend became too hot to grasp.

I wish we had other rifles to test, but these are the ones that are common over here."

Anecdotal, yes, but they seem to back up the idea that mini's run OK as long as they don't get too hot, and that it is a good idea to lubricate them like you would a Garand (grease on the high-load parts, not oil) to keep them running when hot.

 

[General Geoff]

Military-grade rifles are differentiated from commercial-grade rifles in two, major categories. (1) They have a military-specification manual safety that, when "on," renders the rifle mechanically drop-safe, and (2) when hot from heavy shooting, still run, and can continue to be used normally, despite the heat.

Neither the M14 nor M16 have safeties which render the weapon mechanically drop safe, as both still have floating firing pins.

 

[spence]

mh bushmaster. why are mini 14s a pita to scope? I would like to know because I scoped mine and I,m having trouble sighting it in.

 

[benEzra]

Neither the M14 nor M16 have safeties which render the weapon mechanically drop safe, as both still have floating firing pins.

I think he was talking about making the fire-control parts drop-safe; after all, the action cycling imposes some fairly severe decelerations on the pin without slamfire, and unlike some handguns and rifles, it is impossible to drop an AR/AK/FAL/mini on the hammer. I would think that using hard military-style primers, you'd have to drop the rifle off a substantial building to get enough momentum in the pin to set off a round.