Conversation with My "Moderate" Friend about Firearms for Self-Defense

[cpileri]

Your friend sounds A-OK.

She is on a journey, as we all are, and hasn't arrived at the "CHL/CCW" phase- maybe she will, maybe she won't.
But...
If the discussion continues to be faith-centered (Christian, in you rcase) consider this synopsis of a discussion i had with a friend of mine. Both of us also took the Christian arguement path.

Short version:
If Saints Michael, Gabriel and Rafael appeared before me and said that no harm that can be prevented by use of a firearm will ever happen to me or my progeny, I would happily NOT carry one ever again. I do in fact, like guns themselves, but I carry for defense only. Yes, I could take a life, if necessary in the course of legitimate self-defense.
The decision i had to come to in order to carry a firearm and realize I may take life if I ever had to use it is as follows: My life is not mine, it is a gift from The Almighty. My life is His, and I am in stewardship of it. I am also in custodianship of the lives of my wife, children, and possibly others depending on the situation. I can only assume that He made me the way he wants me: among other things, ALIVE. It is not reasonable for me to assume he wants me dead, or else I would be. I further believe He made me for a purpose or maybe more than one purpose. Not the least of these purposes is to know Him and love Him on THIS world; and to raise children to do the same. I can't do either one if I am dead.
Therefore, to not avail myself of legitimate effective means of preserving my life when faced with grave harm or death is to not be in proper custodianship/stewardship of His gift (my life)- it is to hold His gift in disdain(*) which is a grave sin.
Furthermore, in Evangelicum Vitae, we read the following which says, in short: its a terrible thing to have to take life to defend yours, but its the fault of the attacker; and you are still innocent even if the attacker is crazy and not really an evil person; but you still owe it to God to defend your life. See here:
"Christian reflection has sought a fuller and deeper understanding of what God's commandment prohibits and prescribes. There are in fact situations in which values proposed by God's Law seem to involve a genuine paradox. This happens for example in the case of legitimate defense, in which the right to protect one's own life and the duty not to harm someone else's life are difficult to reconcile in practice. Certainly, the intrinsic value of life and the duty to love oneself no less than others are the basis of a true right to self-defense. ...legitimate defense can be not only a right but a grave duty for someone responsible for another's life, the common good of the family or of the State. Unfortunately, it happens that the need to render the aggressor incapable of causing harm sometimes involves taking his life. In this case, the fatal outcome is attributable to the aggressor whose actions brought it about, ...even though he may not be morally responsible because of a lack of the use of reason."
The above even makes refernce to those who take life on behalf of others, soldiers, and police, especially.

END

So my take is that I owe God the gratitude of taking his gift seriously, even if faced with the solemn task of defending life with violence.

Hope that makes sense,
C-

(*) I read that phrase, "hold [His] gift in disdain", in "Nation of Cowards"and i liked the way it sounded, so i adopted it to my speech.

 

[green country shooter]

people change their minds very slowly.

You have planted the seed.

Back off and let it mature.

On another tangent, isn't pepper spray violent? I mean i would consider being pepper sprayed to be a violent assault on me.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

On another tangent, isn't pepper spray violent? I mean i would consider being pepper sprayed to be a violent assault on me.

Both violent and often not as effective as one would wish.

But that's logic. Anti-gun arguments are non-logical. They are based on emotion, and you can't defeat emotion with logic.

 

[batjka]

Well, from what I see your friend has the typical liberal mentality. Did she come from a rich family? Was she brought up by idealistic parents? Was she raised in all-white community? Did she vote for Obama? I'm pretty sure the answer is yes for all of the above questions.

Some people just can't be helped. They have to learn on their own. After a few bumps (hopefully they won't be too hard) she might see that the world is not all rosy and that the "community" is actually made up of individuals and that some of these individuals are criminally minded and cannot be changed by smiling at them and pretending they are nice.

Good luck to her.

 

[1911Tuner]

She said:

I *personally* feel that carrying a gun would imply a sense of distrust about my community.

Having an active police presence kinda implies the same thing...No? Or, does she believe that their primary mission is to write speeding tickets?

The city fathers themselves distrust their community enough to have a police force. They know that within every community are people who would commit violent acts agains their fellow man...and woman.

And for her next response...

When seconds count, the police are only minutes away.

 

[BHPshooter]

But I also think that fear breeds fear, and violence breeds violence.

"One bleeding-heart type asked me in a recent interview if I did not agree that 'violence begets violence.' I told him that it is my earnest endeavor to see that it does. I would like very much to ensure — and in some cases I have — that any man who offers violence to his fellow citizen begets a whole lot more in return than he can enjoy." -Col. Jeff Cooper

Your friend isn't living in the real world. It's not that uncommon, sadly. Even more sad, though, is that it usually takes a serious incident to wake them up to reality. Sometimes they don't live through it.

A childhood friend of mine (about a year younger than I) was an "at-risk" youth counselor. She loved the job for reasons that were echoed in your friend's post -- It was a way to help improve the community, blah blah, etc. Late one night, one of these poor, disadvantaged youths called her, needing help of some sort. When she got there, this poor, at-risk youngster raped her, and then proceeded to stab her to death. http://nomorevictims.net/r_elton.htm

Honestly firearms for protection are not for everyone

You're right. They're only for people who are smart enough to care about self-reliance.

people change their minds very slowly.

You have planted the seed.

And that's about all you can do. One thing I've learned is that people must make their own mistakes -- this applies to every aspect of life.

Wes

 

[nelson133]

I have taught several women to shoot who have gone on to get carry permits. In every case they crossed the line to acquire the means of self defense because something happened in their lives to show the face of violence. It is too bad but it often takes a shock to break the kind of societal conditioning against violence that all of us are exposed to. I believe this conditioning to be stronger in women than men.
Tools other than a gun require rigorous training and luck to be successful. I am reminded of the hiker who was young and trained in the martial arts who fought a man over 60 when he attacked her. Though she caused him some physical pain, he raped and killed because the size and strength disparity was too great. If you are not a strong young man and/or if you end up facing multiple attackers, a gun is the only force equalizer that consistently works. I, like so many in our society, am no long young and I have a few age related handicaps
and I carry a gun every day. I am not guaranteed success in any violent encounter, but I have the most equal chance possible. There is deep truth in the old saying about Col. Colt.
Something that perturbs me is the appearant belief that to use or carry a gun requires the equivalent of 2 weeks at something like Thunder Ranch. More training is better and more practice is better and both should be encouraged. But if you read the print and internet sources on armed citizens facing criminals, you often find people defending successfully themselves without much training or practice. I wouldn't encourage this, but I would not want to make the training issue so big that it might discourage someone who doesn't have the time or money for it to be dissuaded from getting a gun.

 

[hinton03]

Teddy Roseavelt said it best "Speak softly and carry a big stick; you will go far.''

I don't beleive protecting yourself shows distrust in your community; it shows confidence in yourself. Greed is a basic human emotion just like love and fear, as long as it is you will have to protect yourself.

 

[Wile E Coyote]

Protecting yourself with a gun is exactly like protecting your home or vehicle with a fire extinguisher. Do the 3 extinguishers in my home imply I do not trust my local fire dept? Admittedly, the ramifications of using each of those items can be vastly different, but that's what that lump between our ears is for.
I say you should look at the bright side. That being, she did not seem to writhe in disgust at the notion. I agree that perhaps the seed has been planted, and I read some very intelligent rebuttals above for your next go round.

 

[Pack]

I know there are a lot of people in our country like the woman in question here. She sounds like a lovely woman, with a great heart, but I think she's a bit disconnected with reality. Of course that's just my opinion, or perception of reality.

In any event, she is quite useful - useful to me, for example, as a reminder that when I carry, I must continue to foster the mindset that the weapon, my wits, and anything else at my disposal are there only to protect myself and my own, and not to play "citizen's arrest marshall".

If people like her are left to fend for themselves (something which they seem patently incapable of doing), it is unfortunate for them, but better in the longrun, because the free market of ideas - if I may call it that - will "correct" when things get to the point that not even those of such a mentality can ignore the fact that the cavalry is not always just around the corner and they must protect themselves.

Many of us seek greater independence - like that our forefathers enjoyed - and the surest and fastest way back to that way of life is to slowly but surely replace wards of the state with self-reliant individuals, whether it is achieved by persuasion or natural selection.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

I don't beleive protecting yourself shows distrust in your community; it shows confidence in yourself.

When someone says something like "carrying a gun shows distrust in your community" it makes me realize all the money we spend on education is wasted. Can this person not read? Do the newspapers not carry daily accounts of crimes? Does she not have a television and watch the news?

You can trust your community all you want, but if you wind up in the wrong place at the wrong time, you're gonna be a statistic.

 

[Deanimator]

When someone says something like "carrying a gun shows distrust in your community" it makes me realize all the money we spend on education is wasted. Can this person not read? Do the newspapers not carry daily accounts of crimes? Does she not have a television and watch the news?

You can trust your community all you want, but if you wind up in the wrong place at the wrong time, you're gonna be a statistic.

I used to share an office with an elderly man who's irrationally anti-gun.

He didn't see any need for a gun for self-defense, even in his home. I asked him what he'd do if somebody kicked in his door tonight. He replied that he'd give him whatever he wanted. In a totally uncharacteristic kind moment, I DIDN'T ask him if that included his 30-something Down's Syndrome daughter.

The world is what it is, regardless of the comforting fantasies in which you choose to dress it. And it's got a cruel way of slapping you in the mouth to get that message across.

 

[akodo]

violence begets violence

This is true

However, counter the line with the following example

Rapist attacks and ultimately kills a woman he encounters walking in the park at night

A woman walking in the park at night is attacked by a rapist, she ultimately is able to defend herself and kills him.

Are these two situations exactly morally equal? (in both, exactly 1 person dies) Are both situations equally undesirable, or is one MORE undesirable?

 

[tdowell]

She is on a journey, as we all are, and hasn't arrived at the "CHL/CCW" phase- maybe she will, maybe she won't.
But...
If the discussion continues to be faith-centered (Christian, in you rcase) consider this synopsis of a discussion i had with a friend of mine. Both of us also took the Christian arguement path.

Short version:
If Saints Michael, Gabriel and Rafael appeared before me and said that no harm that can be prevented by use of a firearm will ever happen to me or my progeny, I would happily NOT carry one ever again. I do in fact, like guns themselves, but I carry for defense only. Yes, I could take a life, if necessary in the course of legitimate self-defense.
The decision i had to come to in order to carry a firearm and realize I may take life if I ever had to use it is as follows: My life is not mine, it is a gift from The Almighty. My life is His, and I am in stewardship of it. I am also in custodianship of the lives of my wife, children, and possibly others depending on the situation. I can only assume that He made me the way he wants me: among other things, ALIVE. It is not reasonable for me to assume he wants me dead, or else I would be. I further believe He made me for a purpose or maybe more than one purpose. Not the least of these purposes is to know Him and love Him on THIS world; and to raise children to do the same. I can't do either one if I am dead.
Therefore, to not avail myself of legitimate effective means of preserving my life when faced with grave harm or death is to not be in proper custodianship/stewardship of His gift (my life)- it is to hold His gift in disdain(*) which is a grave sin.
Furthermore, in Evangelicum Vitae, we read the following which says, in short: its a terrible thing to have to take life to defend yours, but its the fault of the attacker; and you are still innocent even if the attacker is crazy and not really an evil person; but you still owe it to God to defend your life. See here:
"Christian reflection has sought a fuller and deeper understanding of what God's commandment prohibits and prescribes. There are in fact situations in which values proposed by God's Law seem to involve a genuine paradox. This happens for example in the case of legitimate defense, in which the right to protect one's own life and the duty not to harm someone else's life are difficult to reconcile in practice. Certainly, the intrinsic value of life and the duty to love oneself no less than others are the basis of a true right to self-defense. ...legitimate defense can be not only a right but a grave duty for someone responsible for another's life, the common good of the family or of the State. Unfortunately, it happens that the need to render the aggressor incapable of causing harm sometimes involves taking his life. In this case, the fatal outcome is attributable to the aggressor whose actions brought it about, ...even though he may not be morally responsible because of a lack of the use of reason."
The above even makes refernce to those who take life on behalf of others, soldiers, and police, especially.

END

So my take is that I owe God the gratitude of taking his gift seriously, even if faced with the solemn task of defending life with violence.

Hope that makes sense,
C-

(*) I read that phrase, "hold [His] gift in disdain", in "Nation of Cowards"and i liked the way it sounded, so i adopted it to my speech.

In regards to your quote, I will simple quote Christ,
"Ye do error, not knowing the scripture, or the power of GOD." Mathew 22:29

There is no command given by GOD in either the Talmud, or in the New Testament which instructs us not to kill, in fact, Jesus explicitly instructs his disciples just before his crucifixion that "if you do not have a sword, sell you cloak and buy one." Luke 22:36 He knew that the time would come when it would become necessary to defend ourselves because of our beliefs. As for the 10 commandments, the proper translation is "Thou Shall not take the life of an innocent." or paraphrased, "thou shall not commit murder." It does not say, "Kill" anywhere in the law. GOD himself ordered the deaths of many people after the law was given, and GOD cannot break his own laws.
As for "Turn the other cheek" Jesus was instructing his disciples on how to deal with prideful people not to allow our lives to be put in danger. Jesus never once told his disciples or us, not to protect ourselves.
Regarding your friends issue with arming herself, If she’s a believer, I would give her Luke 22:36. It went a long way towards helping me reconcile within myself how and when I should apply deadly force. The most important part is, its impossible to employ deadly force ever, if you do not have the means. Better to have the means and not do so, then not have the means when it becomes necessary.

 

[tdowell]

"Christian reflection has sought a fuller and deeper understanding of what God's commandment prohibits and prescribes. There are in fact situations in which values proposed by God's Law seem to involve a genuine paradox. .

In regards to your quote, I will simple quote Christ,
"Ye do error, not knowing the scripture, or the power of GOD." Mathew 22:29

There is no command given by GOD in either the Talmud, or in the New Testament which instructs us not to kill, in fact, Jesus explicitly instructs his disciples just before his crucifixion that "if you do not have a sword, sell you cloak and buy one." Luke 22:36 He knew that the time would come when it would become necessary to defend ourselves because of our beliefs. As for the 10 commandments, the proper translation is "Thou Shall not take the life of an innocent." or paraphrased, "thou shall not commit murder." It does not say, "Kill" anywhere in the law. GOD himself ordered the deaths of many people after the law was given, and GOD cannot break his own laws.
As for "Turn the other cheek" Jesus was instructing his disciples on how to deal with prideful people not to allow our lives to be put in danger. Jesus never once told his disciples or us, not to protect ourselves.
Regarding your friends issue with arming herself, If she’s a believer, I would give her Luke 22:36. It went a long way towards helping me reconcile within myself how and when I should apply deadly force. The most important part is, its impossible to employ deadly force ever, if you do not have the means. Better to have the means and not do so, then not have the means when it becomes necessary.

 

[bad_company]

I guess she already made her own choice
Yeah fear is everywhere but again... she made her choice

 

[Yosemite Sam]

This might help a little:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Do you own a fire extinguisher? Why?
by Jim Downey​

Do you own a fire extinguisher? Why? Are you expecting a fire? Or do you have some sort of left-over juvenile desire to play fireman, a private macho image of rushing into a burning building to save a child? Don’t you know that improperly used, a fire extinguisher can be dangerous to yourself and others? And there have been “studies” done that show people who own fire extinguishers are actually more careless with fire risks, thinking that they’ll always be able to resort to their fire extinguisher to solve the problem. Besides, firefighters are always right there when you need them, and can put out any fire for you, so there’s no point in having your own fire extinguisher.

How about an emergency first-aid kit? Do you have one of those? Why? Are you expecting to injure yourself? Or do you have some sort of left-over juvenile desire to play doctor, a private macho image of saving someone from bleeding to death with an improvised tourniquet? Don’t you know that improperly used, medical supplies and equipment can be dangerous to yourself and others? And there have been “studies” done that show people who own first-aid kits are actually more careless in general, thinking that they’ll always be able to resort to their medical supplies to repair any injury they sustain. Besides, Emergency Medical Technicians or doctors are always right there when you need them, and can instantly patch you up if you get injured, so there’s no point in having your own first-aid kit.

Are these responses to being prepared absurd? Yeah. But they are exactly the sorts of responses I get when people find out I have a permit for carrying a concealed weapon, and generally carry a pistol whenever and wherever I can legally do so. And my experience is not at all unusual - most gun owners encounter the same sort of reaction from non-gun owners. We’re asked if we’re expecting to have a shoot-out in the supermarket. We’re asked if we have some childish fantasy about playing cops & robbers. We’re told that if we want to play with guns and shoot people that we should join the military. We’re confronted with facts that guns are inherently dangerous to ourselves and others, and that “studies” have shown that owning a gun makes it more likely that we will behave in such a fashion as to need to resort to using one to get us out of a dangerous situation. And besides, there’s always a cop around when you need one, just to protect you, so there’s no need to have a weapon for self defense.

Are there gun owners who think that carrying a weapon makes them invincible, and they therefore go around with a chip on their shoulder, putting themselves in dangerous situations thinking that they can always whip out their pistol and escape? Yeah, probably. But that is no more the typical mindset of a gun owner than is the notion that someone who owns a fire extinguisher is going to be careless with fire risks. Are guns inherently dangerous, and if used improperly present a threat to the owner and anyone else in the vicinity? Definitely. Which is why anyone who carries a weapon has a responsibility (usually mandated by law in the state which issued their concealed carry permit) to know how to safely handle and use a firearm, how to safely store it, and when it can be legally used in defense of self or another. And are there gun owners who think that they’re some kind of auxiliary police force, ready to jump in and right any criminal wrong they see being committed? Yup. In fact, a lot of people who legally carry a firearm do so precisely because there are situations where intervening could save the life of a loved one, a friend or even a stranger. But that doesn’t mean that they are wanna-be cops. Rather, they’re just trying to help contribute to their own safety and the safety of others. The police, firefighters and EMTs can’t be everywhere. We do have a responsibility to protect ourselves, to make prudent preparations in the event of an unexpected turn of events. That means having a fire extinguisher handy in case of a fire. It means having a first aid kit, and knowing some basic medical skills for dealing with an emergency. And for me it means having a gun available as a tool for self protection. Your level of comfort with how you are prepared for what situations may well be different, but that does not mean that my decision, and the decision of millions of other Americans, to legally and safely carry a concealed weapon is wrong or paranoid.

 

[Yosemite Sam]

We’re asked if we’re expecting to have a shoot-out in the supermarket.

Say... Didn't this just happen?

 

[Deanimator]

We’re asked if we’re expecting to have a shoot-out in the supermarket.

Hmmm, let's choose:

1. "Shootout" in a supermarket.
2. Five execution style murders in a Lane Bryant clothing store.

Oh yeah, getting shot in the back of the head while you're cowering on your knees; that seems SO very preferable to a "gunfight"...

 

[MisterMike]

First, I'd commend the OP for making the effort to help his friend protect herself. I don't necessarily think she's made the right decision, but she appears to understand that she's responsible for her own safety and has come to a reasoned determination as to how she's going to deal with the possibility of violence. As others have noted, guns aren't for everyone. Truthfully, I'd rather see a woman make an informed decision to pursue other means of self-defense, rather than mindlessly start carrying a gun, without the benefit of having the attitude and technical proficiency to employ it effectively.

I think you've taken it far enough. Maybe at some point in the future you could ask her if she's interested in going to the range with you. But seriously, even if that occurs, I wouldn't push it any further. If she comes to see the utility of carrying, great. If not, then you've made a very noble effort by doing something you believe is in her best interest.

 

[catspa]

When I hear someone say "violence begets violence" and use it as an argument against carrying or owning a gun (or any weapon, as some do), it tells me that they have failed to understand or refuse to admit the distinction between unprovoked violence and protective violence. If no decent person was willing to engage in the latter, the bloodiest and most ruthless among us would soon be at the top of the heap, and the rest of us would be cowering in fear as our loved ones were murdered and raped before our eyes.

Look at Somalia for an example of how that works.

Parker

 

[KSDeputy]

Carrying a firearm

I think because of my career, I know what is out there. I have been carrying a firearm for 42 years. I will carry one until I am home bound, then I will have it handy. I believe in God, but I also believe He expects us to help ourselves. Peace officers cannot be everywhere, nor can we be expected to be there at the second you need us. It is up to the individual to protect themselves. I have always advocated for the right of law abiding citizens to keep and bear arms. I helped fight for concealed carry in my state. It isn't perfect, there are way to many places in the statute where people are prohibited from carrying, but it is better that it was before. I'm hoping someday, the legislature will whittle down the list where one cannot carry.