1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Could deadly force have been used.

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by shootistpd27, Feb 24, 2009.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. shootistpd27

    shootistpd27 Well-Known Member

    Today I was on the way home from picking my ten week old daughter up from the baby sitters and an 18 wheeler was riding my bumper. The guy was so close that if I tapped my brakes he would not have seen my tail lights. We were in a long straight away and it was a passing zone. I waved for the trucker to go around me for I was doing five miles above the speed limit but he wouldnt budge. I sped up to 75 and he stayed on my bumper. I sped up to 80 and he stayed there. Im not talking about one car length. This kenworth was within 3 feet of my bumper. I was really scared that if a car pulled out in front of me and I had to stop the truck was going to crush my small buick and he would have hit my daughter first. I waved for him to back off for he still could not see my brake lights. I tried to check the facial demeanor of the driver but I couldnt see his face for the truck was so close I couldnt see over the grill in my rear view. I thought the guy was going to ram me. I came to a fork in the road and hit it very fast to shake the guy. Had the fork not been there and he kept on my bumper and had actually hit my bumper, would I have been justified exhibit my weapon out the window in his direction. I mean this guy could have killed my little girl and me. I am a cop myself, I wouldnt prosecute someone in my shoes who did that, but in this increasingly liberal society, Im not sure what a grand jury would say. Your opinions please.
  2. HK G3

    HK G3 Well-Known Member

    No, tailgating is NEVER justification for the use of deadly force or the display of a firearm.

    The guy sounds like a terrible driver, and if you had his license plate, I'd report him to whatever company he belongs to.
  3. wyocarp

    wyocarp Well-Known Member

    I feel for you. Some truckers (actually a lot of truckers) use the size of their rigs to bully people on the highways. I've made an issue of it by calling or stopping highway patrols, but who knows how that helps.

    I think you would be without a job and in trouble for showing your weapon if the trucker called about you.
  4. armoredman

    armoredman Well-Known Member

    No, IMO you could have left the road at any time to avoid the conflict. IF he had followed you OFF the road to continue a confrontation, yes. Shooting from a moving vehicle is very very iffy at best. It doesn't sound like the right thing to do, but especially with your child, shooting in your car, unless to avoid immediate threat of life and limb, would have probably landed you in very very hot water. This wasn't covered in the academy?
    I am glad you came through alright, but displaying a firearm, in my state, in these circumstances, would be, and has been, chargeable as aggravated assault.
  5. Tennesseean

    Tennesseean Well-Known Member

    Ditto armoredman

    I think you'd have a hard time convincing a DA that a semi on your bumper justified shooting at him. Not only would it be an extremely difficult shot and risky to all drivers on the road, but if you did shoot and wound/kill the driver, then you would have a runaway semi at a high rate of speed, which is an even more dangerous situation. That's bad news.
  6. jerkface11

    jerkface11 Well-Known Member

    You need 3 seconds of separation between you and the vehicle in front of you. If the guy behind you is only a few feet away speeding up makes it WORSE. Always slow down when tailgated. In fact I simply take my foot off the gas pedal.
  7. That is unacceptable to me.

    Get your vehicle out of that lane, get away from the rig, but... GET the truck number, company name.

    If anything else get the DOT number off the side of the cab.

    Once you have enough of that off that truck, even if it was a trailer number.

    Then get the closest mile marker on the freeway where it happened and get the time of day.

    Go straight to the telephone, find 1-800-555-1212 which is business 800 directory assistance (Is that number still working?) and get ahold of that trucking company.

    Ask for safety. All truck drivers fear safety department.

    If this is some kind of owner operator, get ahold of 911 and get the leo's involved.

    DONT wave a gun out of your window. DONT stay in front of that fella.

    GET out of the way.

    Man, that sort of thing enrages me to no end, this tailgating stuff. By his simple act of tailgating, his desire to get to the customer with the cargo overrides his regard for human life.

    That driver ought to be removed from the road.

    But before you do anything, get out of the way and start getting information off that tractor and trailer as much as you can. Then your location and start contacting the company that owns the truck or 911.

    If you do get out from under the front bumper with the information, get off the free way or at least allow the hot head to get by, always stay behind him about 200 feet away, no closer. This way he cannot do a certain tatic that will decapitate you. (Make that about 4 seconds. It takes about that much for 18 wheeler brakes to generate the power necessary to make it happen)

    Deescalate a tailgating trucker, gather information off the truck itself, get time of day, your location and start contacting authorities and company safety department.

    Dont accept a brush off from the secrectary. Tell them that your life and that of your child was in imminent danger and you are not going to accept anything less than prosecution of that driver starting with his firing by the saftety department.

    Long ago there was impatience and poor professionalism resulting in tailgating and now it's just simple attempt to clear the road. Something has gone very deeply wrong with that driver and it's up to you to get your child out of there.

    No different than a SUV coming up to your bumper in rush hour because you were too slow.

    Your car at 3000 pounds is simply a bump and grind to a 40 tonner at 75 mph. he wont even hear your screams.

    NOT acceptable.

    Suppose you did shoot the driver. Yeehaw!! you got im!! great!

    sorry sir. Now you have BUILT a flying dutchman truck in a straight line due to mass, momentum and physics. It;s NO longer about YOU but now endangers ALL on both sides of that interstate.

    Eventually he will probably bounce into the opposing lines of traffic and kill 30 cars, wreck 4 trucks and god knows what else carnage.

    Are you still happy you shot that driver?

    No. Do it right. Get him called in to the company, and follow up. Prosecute him as well. Who knows? Company might settle with you with a bit of money for your scare. But if they do it right, that driver will never ever drive anything else besides a farm or carnival truck ever again.
  8. shootistpd27

    shootistpd27 Well-Known Member

    I understand simple tailgating. But this was an 18 wheeler rock truck pushing probably 60,000 lbs. I gave him every opportunity to back off or pass. I even exceeded the posted speed limit by 25 mile an hour. One definition of assault with a deadly weapon is when a person attempts by physical menace or a deadly weapon to put another in fear of imminient serious bodily harm or physical injury or death. And I believe the kenworth was a deadly weapon. I dont believe in reaching for a gun unless there is no other way out. I tried to get away from the guy and if not for the fork in the road I could not escape him. I drive an 84 buick skylark that is paid for but is no longer a spring chicken. I could not have beated the truck with mere speed. I was at the point where I had to get the guy off of me or my daughter and I were going to get hurt. I couldnt get the tag number because it was on the back of the truck and I took the turn off so fast I couldnt get turned around in time to catch him plus Im not chasing people with my kid in the car. I also know that the tag numbers on trucks cannot be run through ncic unless you have the vin which is of course on the truck.
  9. swagner89

    swagner89 member

    cops don't prosecute people; prosecutors do- cops just make the arrest. speeding up is probably the worst idea to get rid of a tailgater next to waving a gun wildly behind you. a trained police officer would not do any of the things described here. this whole story doesn't add up...
  10. It's not about the Ncic. There is a entire layer based on teh Federal Motor Carriers in the Government regulating trucking and tied in pretty close with law enforcement on many levels.

    It about company name, any other number on the unit and getting the word out.

    If you had a cell phone call 911. They can triangulate you very fast and realize that there is a problem.

    It seems to me you survived this time around, Im trying to give you mental pathways to avoid the next.

    But whatever you do, dont wave that gun out of the window. The trucker may already be mentally ill in a way and that would just cause him to go bump to you "oops did I do that" while you spin out and flip over many times.

    What I do in my car is keep a camcorder, digital cam and cell phone. If a problem develops, I snap pictures or take video and get the hell out of there. I have two vehicles that are reasonable in performace and can outrun most rigs except the really serious dollar trucks (Dollar truck = 100 mph or greater) most are governed about 67 through 73 or so.

    The imagery is enough to be good in court once they do find the fella.
  11. jakk280rem

    jakk280rem Well-Known Member

    lethal force is a last resort, not a preemptive action. a cal to 911 would be a first step. a second step would be to change lanes and slow down allowing the truck to continue on the way. if he had hit you, tried to run you off the road, that could be constued as assault with a deadly weapon and a more serious approach taken.
  12. shootistpd27

    shootistpd27 Well-Known Member

    Understand gentlemen. I did not even think of drawing my weapon at the time. I was only asking for your opinions. I began thinking about the use of deadly force after I lost the guy. I dont think that this guy was just in a hurry I think that he was just a bully. The way he was driving and he was so close that if i did begin to slow down his bumper would have made contact with mine before he could have slowwed down because I know that he could not see my bumper for the nose of his truck was in the way. Im new to this daddy thing. There are things that you consider when your whole life is facing towards a big rig in a rear facing child safety seat than you would when it was just you on the way back from a couple of hours at the range.
  13. Varminthound

    Varminthound Well-Known Member

    Better to wave your badge than your weapon.

    Easy to offer advice since I wasn't there but the prime directive is to stay alive and you kept your child and you alive.
  14. shootistpd27

    shootistpd27 Well-Known Member

    I try not to get my dander up when in a discussion but swagner89, you can take your BS and....well.... it isnt worth it. There was no gun waving, my gun never left the holster, at the time all I was worried about was getting my daughter out of that situation and I did. My curiosity of opinions from common folks and not guys in the locker room got the best of me and I asked. There is no reason for you to get that kind of an attitude. I made no attacks on your character and I would appreciate it if you would not make any towards mine.
  15. I say this. Bullies bad, angry daddies worse.

    I have had daddies come up to me and bark at me in a towering rage to move my rig off that parking lot because the wind was drifting fumes from my exhaust into a child's bedroom on a summer night.

    Angry daddy is a happy dad very fast.

    But bullies behind the wheel of a semi is really bad. Life and death bad.

    Long ago on Sandstone a truck was out of braking power and out of control, we put the trailer on him and hold im there to stop for the both of us. That little story wont go any further than that, but it was a sort of touch and go for a bit. Fortunatley no one else was around in cars to complicate that situation.

    But I will tell you this, You are a Daddy, take care and protect your family out there. Im just a worn out old has been who cannot smell desiel without going back 30 years. But Bullies bad, angry daddies who effectively follow up are more bad-bad.

  16. shootistpd27

    shootistpd27 Well-Known Member

    Appearently swagner89 is from a big city. Here in my little backwoods corner of mississippi the prosocutors do prosocute, however the dirt road deputy is the one who puts all the evidence together and takes the case to grand jury. If there deputy doesnt think that a crime was committed then he does not take it to the grand jury and then the prosocutor doesnt know that anything ever happened.
  17. Well, much can be said for large parts of the USA and borders.

    Alot of things good and bad has happend and no one the wiser.

    Something about small towns and out of way places. You aint in Kansas any more Toto and Dorthy.

    Some strange situations that would be normal in a North east city just does not fly in tumbleweed town out west LOL.

    But yer still here, and I can probably generate any number of places on the interstate where this may happened. But you got out of it and next time, calmly gather information on the rig, hopefully by the time you see it coming in time to get out of the way. =)

    But you know what?

    Take heart that life has a circle. That bully may have gotten by ya that time, but dont worry.... something will come along to complicate this poor fella's world. Things have a way of coming around what goes around, ya know?

  18. GregGry

    GregGry Well-Known Member

    I have had semis taligate me, to the point I thought I could count the bugs in the radiator. However I find it hard to believe that trying to shoot them VS just pulling over/taking the next exit will be seen as justifiable. Did they try to run you off the road? Did they ram your car? Did they display a weapon of their own? Were you shot at? All of thoes things would make it more reasonable when it comes to using deadly force.

    Putting your gun out the window is going to acomplish what exactly? If your a cop you should know that doing that is stupid. Your badge would be a better idea. Or even better pull over and get the information you need and call the local police.
  19. To be honest, to bring down a semi that has... a few wheels short a a loose nut in the cab requires an army and coordinated response.

    If I had one cop pull me over, fine.

    If I had 40 cops come up next to me in convoy but indicate that we were not targets, just a cover for the actual perp target car to our right....

    But if I went nutzo and loose gone with a semi, it is by rights a very deadly weapon and requires a entire county, state and maybe federal response tatically to stop it. I would not care about those teeny stop sticks, I would bury the cop and his car. and keep going.

    But gentlemen, dont think that last paragraph a threat, just a thought of what might happens if a semi driver loses contact with professonalism or possibly reality itself and starts to endanger life.

    There is a line between those who dont get hurt (AWESOME!!! Execellent) and those who do. And folks, it's never pretty.

    However, that being said, one good slug shotgun in the right places on a rig in a number of spots WILL stop the thing. Maybe not right away, but will stop it. And that is best left to law enforcement.
  20. 2ndAmFan

    2ndAmFan Well-Known Member

    Bad scene and I'm glad you and your daughter didn't get hurt. I have to agree with the majority here that even though the trucker was endangering your lives lethal force, or the threat of it wouldn't have been justified since he hadn't harmed either of you or clearly indicated that he intended deliberate harm to you or your daughter. Showing your gun could have backfired and gotten you into a lethal force encounter which you successfully avoided by taking the action you did.
    Assuming you had a phone, calling 911 and giving them as much info as you could, and getting off the road ASAP and letting him go past, not necessarily in that order, were probably your best options since you were armed and prepared in case he followed when you pulled off and things got really ugly. I don't know where you were at the time, but if there was any way (Uphill stretch, tight curve, etc,) you could gain even a few feet to get off the road and away from him that would have been the most important thing.
    I used to ride a motorcycle and you'd be amazed at the number of car drivers who would never tailgate another car but will crawl right up the tail pipe of a bike, not realizing they're trying to kill you, so I can really identify with your experience. I've known more than a few bikers who carried just for that scenario but I can't say it's a good way to deal with such a threat. I think it's best to get out of harm's way if you can.
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2009
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page