Criminals in Home Invasion Identify themselves as Local Police !

[nobody_special]

If you don't engage in criminal activity or associate with those who do, your chances of being the victim of a mistaken police raid are somewhat less then your chances of being struck by a meteorite.

That's obviously and demonstrably false. Deaths from being struck by a meteor are virtually unheard-of. (And I'm aware of the odds argument, I'm an astronomer with a side-interest in near-earth orbit asteroids.) Mistaken no-knock police raids are uncommon but you do hear about one occuring every few weeks.

They are going to hit you when you are deep in rem sleep and it will be over with before you shake the cobwebs out of your head.

Not only is Elza correct in that REM sleep is cyclic, but further you're assuming that everyone follows a normal sleep pattern; Some people (such as myself) do not, and it may not be easy for an outside observer to determine that -- even with thermal infrared.

Furthermore, you're again demonstrably wrong that residents would be unable to respond with force, as there have been several news stories of police being shot in self-defense by citizens due to a no-knock warrant being served at the wrong address. Even a 90-year-old grandmother managed it.

I keep telling you guys these things are planned.

If they were really all that well planned, don't you think they'd double-check the address?

 

[LawBot5000]

Cliff notes of Jeff's posts:

1) fortify the entrances to your house. Get a burglar bar or whatever the proper name for them is. It's basically a strong steel bar- one end goes into a steel fitting on the door, the other end goes into a steel fitting in the concrete floor. When you try to force the door, the bar flexes but doesn't give. You can body slam it or battering ram it for 20-30 minutes before it (maybe) shakes loose. I've tried and they very hard to defeat, even with all other locks unlocked. I'm surprised that fewer people have them.

2) fortify the interior of your house. Strong lockable interior doors.

3) sleep with a loaded rifle next to your bed.

4) aim for the face, armpit and crotch, whichever happens to be exposed

 

[budney]

Nobody, your last post and Jeff's were both basically right.

1) Wrong-door raids are rare. If they were common, the people would be outraged enough to put a stop to it. Not as rare as meteor strikes, but a few dozen, a few hundred--even a few thousand people are "rare" enough that most people aren't going to worry and, for practical purposes, don't need to worry much.

2) Busting down the wrong door is evidence of poor planning, and mistakes at Waco, Ruby Ridge and other botched raids are notorious. Nevertheless, these guys are trained, equipped, wide awake, pumped up on adrenaline and caffeine, and you're in bed dreaming about chicks. In relative terms, the invaders' advantage is huge.

3) As LawBot summed up, slowing down the invaders is your best hope. If they make it into your bedroom before you reach for your gun, you're pretty much a goner. If you hear them hammering away on your reinforced door, setting off your alarms, you have time to strap on the body armor and Peltors and grab your rifle.

--Len

 

[LawBot5000]

For starters:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Door_security

This is really sad, I can't find that security bar that my parents use in their apartment. Dunno if it is still made. That thing is like fort knox. Really beefy door with a really springy cylindrical bar about 4-5 feet long that slots into the floor and into the lock side of the door.

 

[DKSuddeth]

already mentioned

 

[Elza]

nobody_special: Not only is Elza correct in that REM sleep is cyclic, but further you're assuming that everyone follows a normal sleep pattern; Some people (such as myself) do not, and it may not be easy for an outside observer to determine that -- even with thermal infrared.

An excellent point, nobody. I, myself, have very erratic sleep patterns. There is no telling whether I am awake or asleep or what sleep stage I might be in.

 

[LawBot5000]

I personally don't think it is asking too much for the police to:
-not serve warrants at 2 in the morning. Unless it is an emergency, you know this is an inappropriate time. This is common sense and common courtesy to your neighbors.
-not serve no-knock warrants ever. The whole point of giving you guys badges and uniforms is so that we can tell you aren't bad guys. When you start forcing doors and dressing like ninjas, it is hard to tell that you are good guys. And no, saying "police!" isn't good enough.

It is that simple. If you have a search warrant, search during the day. If you have an arrest warrant, arrest during the day. If you need to get into someone's house, knock first. These are rules so basic that any civilized person can follow them.

 

[precisionshootist]

This thread gave me a chuckle !

I keep telling you guys these things are planned.

My first thought: So well planned they often get the wrong address.

My second thought: Custer had a plan.

My third thought: ATF had a plan when they went up against the Branch Davidians.

Professionals have plans to deal with dogs. This includes cops and criminals.

Those that believe they have a plan to deal with dogs have'nt breached a door in front of 3 Fila Brasileiro's.

 

[Jeff White]

I'm really sorry to have burst anyone's fantasy about taking out a whole SWAT team or a crew of professional home invaders. I guess I spoilt it with a dose of reality before you got to the point where you were standing ankle deep in brass with the bodies of your slain foes stacked like cordwood in front of you and the girls from the Hooters down the street were huddled behind you begging you to father their children because you you just rid the city of: a) a corrupt group of rogue police officers who were running amok kicking little kittens out of their way, running little old ladies onto the curb with their speeding squad cars, shaking down the Girl Scouts for protection money during cookie season and other nefarious deeds too numerous to name here...or

b) a gang of professional criminals staright out of a Quentin Tarantino movie who were terrorizing the town by doing home invasion robberies, taunting the hapless families by raping their pets in front of them and eating all of the chocolate chip cookies in the cabinet and spilling milk all over the kitchen.

On a more serious note, these threads get pretty old. The same group of people get online and express all their frustrations with the political system and the criminal justice system by puffing out their chest and declaring for everyone with web access to see that they intend to slay the police or criminal home invaders. The problem with that is, real life doesn't work that way. It may make you all feel better, but if you were ever unfortunate enough to be in the position to do just what you say you're going to do, you are most likely going to die for your trouble.

You may grab up your gun and even get a shot or two off, you may even hit one of the home invaders. But the rest of them, be they the evil rogue SWAT team or a gang of professional criminals are going to kill you. And if it's not a rogue SWAT team and it really is a gang of professional criminals, there is a good chance they are going to kill everyone else in the house too. After all, they've already killed you, leaving witnesses might not be the best idea.

So if you are serious about how to handle a situation like that, as unlikely as it will be, it's probably smarter to talk about physical security measures and ways to communicate with the authorities.

Heck, that might even be a productive discussion. Probably not as satisfying to some of you as thumping your chest and telling everyone how you're going to kill to protect your honor, but someone who surfed in here looking for real information might learn something.

I might remind you that in most of the examples you gave of people who got a shot off at the cops to prove to me that your solution was the right one, the shooter is now deceased.

If you think that no knock raids should be banned, then I suggest you contact your elected representative and get a law passed banning them. If you think that all search warrants should be served in daylight hours, then you should get a law passed to that effect. Puffing you chest out on the internet and making noises about how you're going to go down fighting doesn't impress anyone. In fact it makes the entire gun culture look like a bunch of immature people who shouldn't have access to guns.

There is a system in place for you to change the things you don't like. It's slow, cumbersome and frustrating.

All the macho posturing on the internet is going to get you is the opposite of what you want. You might be surprised how copies of threads like this might end up in documentation to justify the puchase of more equipment to militarize the police. I bet none of you ever thought about that. You aren't scaring the authorities into believing they better back off or there will be a bloodbath. The authorities are positive they will win the bloodbath because they know that the majority of the American people aren't part of the gun culture. Yes, the majority may own guns, but those guns aren't as important to them as they are to us. Scare them enough about what the gun culture is capable of and there won't be a gun culture any longer, they will happily legislate us out of existance.

You're not among friends at the gunshow when you post things here. It's the same as putting on the news crawler of your favorite cable news network.

I'm done with this one now, you can all go back to venting your emotions by talking about killing cops.......

Jeff

 

[DKSuddeth]

Jeff, I got alot of respect for you, but this

Puffing you chest out on the internet and making noises about how you're going to go down fighting doesn't impress anyone. In fact it makes the entire gun culture look like a bunch of immature people who shouldn't have access to guns.

makes you sound like Henry Waxman.

 

[Jeff White]

DK,
It was meant to sound that way. The day will come when the likes of Henry Waxman, Diane Feinstein, Dick Durbin, Chuck Schumer or Carolyn McCarthy will read from these threads into the Congressional Record during the debate on some restrictive legislation. The news media will gladly broadcast the CSPAN coverage and Mr. and Mrs. America for who a gun is the dusty old thing that belonged to grandad and is sitting unused in the corner of the old wardrobe in the basement will decide we really are dangerous.

The chances that any legislator will look at them and think, "My God, we're really upsetting the public we need to back off before they start the revolution! is just about nil.

Jeff

 

[DKSuddeth]

The chances that any legislator will look at them and think, "My God, we're really upsetting the public we need to back off before they start the revolution! is just about nil.

and so it was in 1774, and maybe that's the best news of all.

 

[Jeff White]

In 1774 approximately 1/3 of the colonists were willing to take up arms. You will never see that happen in this country without a trigger like a major economic collapse. We're lucky to get a third of the eligible citizens of this nation to vote, do you think you're going to get them to take up arms?

We're fighting the next American revolution now. It's called the culture war. We're all in it. And if we don't fight smart, we're going to be marginalized out of existence. Coming off like spoiled children who aren't getting their way isn't a smart way to fight. Sounding like spoiled children who have guns and can hurt people is in my opinion downright counterproductive.

The internet can be a great tool. But don't think that our own words can't be used against us. They already have been.

We will never convert antis here, not in the numbers we need to, because too many of them are true believers, but if we continue to reinforce the stereotypes they use to portray us in the media, the antis will sway enough of the public into their camp to make the second amendment a quaint anachronism.

I personally want to die knowing my grandchildren are enjoying my guns.

Just something for people to think about before they start posting about killing cops and going out in a blaze of glory.

Jeff

Jeff

 

[ubermensch]

I sleep with ear plugs in and a fan going next to my head, and I am a very deep sleeper who is totally confused for the first few minutes after waking up. Home invaders and/or SWAT teams would be all over me before I knew anything was going on. Even if I did wake up I would be too freaked out to do anything, and they would probably see me holding a pistol and then promptly unload on me.

Sad but true.


It seems to me that both problems (armed gangs and SWAT raids) could be largely ameliorated by ending the "War on Drugs"--by legalizing some drugs you completely undercut the gangs and then the paramilitary police have no reason to raid anyone.

Whatever bandit problem is left could be solved by requiring the head of each household to have and be trained in the use of home defense gun, and advertising this fact. Maybe we could give people a big tax cut for attending safety classes and practicing each year. Deputize everyone.

Always err on the side of liberty.

 

[DeltaGunner]

Well then.........

Mr. white is quite right.............
If you never been involved in a surprise attack, in the light of day or night, your pretty much living in a fantasy of winning either way.
Right now there are 8 men squads, silently walking the streets of Bagdad, performing no knock entries..... this practice goes on night after night.
They are pretty darn successful. The U.S. body count for 5 years is pretty low.
Most succumb to chicken sh*t road side bombs.
I've seen the surprise attacks first hand. All who have gun in hand don't survive.
This forum is pretty ridiculous and should be shut down.
There exists a number of key board rangers that need to enlist and try the real world.
Gripe about this guys, and remember if your ever in the neighbor hood you can K.M.A.

 

[DKSuddeth]

so we should all **** and be good little subjects. we're not capable of, nor should we attempt to be, self defensive. we don't need to worry about protecting our homes, that's what the police are for.

gbtw

 

[Hardware]

Taking things back closer to the High Road...

Nightime intruders to my home will be presumed hostile until proven otherwise. Likewise any formation of redcoats marching into my town.

'Nuff said.

 

[209]

New to the forum. I have lurked here for a long time, and this thread prompted me to register.

I've worked with SWAT folks.... I'm a LEO. They're very good at what they do. (Well, okay... sometimes they read the address wrong ) I’ve been on the receiving end of SWAT raids during training. I’ve got to say, even though I knew what was going to happen, it’s an overwhelming experience if done right. Most SWAT raids do go right. SWAT train- they train hard and they train the same tactics many times so it's almost second nature to them. A lot of them are very good at what they do. I doubt there are that many hours spent by non-SWAT folks training how to prevent such a raid.

I figure, if a police tac team ever mistakenly hits my home, and I'm there asleep, I won't even make it to my gun before they're standing in my bedroom.... unless they're noisy enough when they're setting it up and I wake up wondering what all of the vehicle movement is as I live in a very rural area and changes in the natural pattern seem to wake me. But, even if I woke up and had the time to throw on my vest, grab my guns and be waiting for them, I'm going to be losing the fight. The best I could hope for would be a stand-off. But, if they're in the house and I shoot, it's extremely likely I die. Given the bullets that would be flying, it's also likely my wife and kids, if I had any, would be exposed to a lot of lead. They may die, because most houses up this way don't exactly have interior walls that stop bullets too well.

I've had the police show up at my house three times during what I'd call a "normal" response. All mistakes- they were looking for the neighbor’s house behind mine; we share a common driveway. We don't have a town PD and the state police are our police presense and most of the troopers that work my area don't get a good overview of the area since they respond to a large area emcompassing 10 or more towns. They may not go to any one area in any of those towns more than once a year- if ever. Mistakes happen!

Two of those times, I woke up before they came to the door and I was ready and alert. But, one time, they managed to knock on my front door before I even knew they were there. I suspect if any of those three occasions were SWAT raids, I’d have been sound asleep until I heard the ram hit the door. The chances of me mounting a credible defense would be nil. Since I carry a handgun almost constantly, I have one fairly readily available. My long guns are in a safe. I’d probably not get to one of those in the short time I had.

Like most [smart] LEOs, I “war game” various scenarios on a regular basis which is something I started doing during my military years. It’s a good way to formulate a plan and the repetition helps develop a mind-set. I have yet to come up with a great plan for dealing with a home invasion. There are too many variables. I’m not saying anyone shouldn’t attempt to plan their actions in a home invasion, since there are things you should plan for, but it's hard to cover all of the facets that are involved.

But given my experiences, I’d have to say you’re way behind the power curve if you think you’re ready to repel all boarders when it comes to stopping a police tac team.

 

[Art Eatman]

DK, it's not a matter of shutting up. Jeff's offering some realism about the real world and The Way It Is.

There may well be that occasional person who can waken and instantaneously make shoot/no-shoot decisions, but they're as common as Jeff's meteorites. Unless you sleep with your weapon in your hand--and that's no guarantee, think "Tueller Drill" and consider time and reaction time.

Unless your residence is hardened and unless you have an alarm system, the idea that you offer any defensive threat to halfway-competent home invaders is indeed Keyboard Kommando-itis.

Anybody here remember the millionaire in California whose home was raided due to phony info to the law, a lie about him being a marijuana smuggler? He'd happened to wake up, get a drink of water, and heard noises. He got his handgun and was prepared to resist whoever came into his house.

He got shot and killed.

The only security is gonna take a lot of work by a lot of people:

1. Lobby Congress to end the War on Drugs as we now have it.

2. Lobby local governments to end the use of SWAT teams on break-doors entry for arrests.

3. Don't watch TV shows which glorify SWAT and thereby give Bad Guys ideas.

Outside of the political process, I see no way to accomplish anything useful.

Art

 

[Geno]

I said it before, and i will say it again.

If you do not like your local police department's service, fire them! We just did exactly that. We gave them 2 weeks notice as required by the previous contract and sent them packing. Why? Simple, they collectively, have been the laziest, most unethical excuse for wanna-be-cops that the local people have ever seen.

Lest some decide to "flame" me as anti-cop, I will save you the time. The city Board voted unanimously, based on extensive community feedback. I was not a sole discontented citizen, or even just a handful. Furthermore, they had fair notice.

At a certain time, you have to say "Enough"! We said enough to the county police and fired them! We have hired our own city police department. Furthermore, we will have a Police Oversight Board that is to serve to "remind the police that they work for the people!"

Oh, and since we're talking about TV shows, what is the name of the TV program that had the rouge cop who beats the urine and feces out of people, even murders people? Seriously, I don't recall because I refuse to ever watch it again. It GLORIFIES not only police abuse, it glorifies even police murder! What the Hades is THAT doing on TV?! Get rid of crooked-cop-show while you're out getting rid of the shows that encourage perps.

So you see, Art is right! Take your political stand! We did!

Edited to add: I just may seek a seat on that oversight board.

Doc2005

 

[budney]

DK, far as I can tell Jeff is opposing your tactics, not your principles.

Big talk about shooting cops (1) encourages them to militarize further, (2) reduces the effectiveness of our message to undecideds, (3) can be used by gun-grabbers to further their agenda, (4) is basically fantasy, and (5) if put into practice, will surely get you killed.

Self-defense is one thing; taking on the entire US armed forces is quite another. Armed insurrection is a last resort. As Jeff says, the political process is the first resort. I've mostly given up on politics, but I'm hardly ready for American Revolution II yet.

--Len.

 

[cracked butt]

I wonder how many of the armchair comandos who are doubting Mr White's stance spend as many hours in hard training repelling boarders as the SWAT team spends in hard training to do the opposite?


"Authorities said the 36-year-old man answered a knock on the door and three men rushed inside."

"The gunman is described as a short, black man, 30 years of age, wearing a gray sweater and white and red ball cap."

"The second man is described as a 24-year-old black man, wearing a black hoodie and black jeans. The third intruder is a Hispanic man with braided hair wearing dark-colored pants and shirt."

The way I read this is the man more than likely opened the door to a group that could on the surface appear to be gangbangers. Bad strategy and bad tactics on the part of the residence all around.
I'm apparantly missing the part that other people are reading where there were men wearing police uniforms or who showed Police ID or who used a battering ram or even flashbangs to enter the residence.

 

[Chris Rhines]

Unless your residence is hardened and unless you have an alarm system,...

That should be in big flashing letters. Hardening your residence is the first thing you should be thinking about if you're worried about home invasions/dynamic entries (and I differ with Jeff here, in that I think these are reasonable things to be worried about.)

- Chris

 

[TallPine]

I thought the original post was about people knocking on your door and then forcing their way in ...????????????????

If they were really all that well planned, don't you think they'd double-check the address?

Now that was really good! OW!


Oh yeah ... and I'm still trying to figure out how a dozen guys are going to get up my steep narrow stairs all at the same time without making a lot of noise ??????

 

[craig]

jeff white.. your posts come across as a little elitist to me. maybe that's just me.

i hear "swat trains hard, fights hard and really plan ahead" so you civilians stand no chance.

well, if we ever have a natural disaster down here, please stay home. i don't want another new orleans down here, though those officers did look real macho beating that old lady down.