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DAO is a SAFER carry gun... (that got your attention)

Discussion in 'Handguns: Autoloaders' started by Maximum1, Dec 10, 2006.

  1. Maximum1

    Maximum1 Well-Known Member

    In this day and age I really don't think it’s wise to carry anything other than a DAO ONLY... Many will disagree, but the facts are non DAO guns on the market have one or more safeties because they need them...They go off accidentally that’s why the manufacturer put one (OR MORE) safeties on the gun!!! That wouldn’t happen with a DAQ.

    Furthermore, when the bad guy is 21 feet and now charging you would you rather A) spend the 1.5 secs it take for him to reach you taking off the safeties or B) pulling the trigger on that ready to go (safe) DAO...... For me, I choose B...

    And don't forget about those wrongful death lawsuits...Read Massid Ayoob book “In gravest Extreme” or Robert Waters book “The Best Defense. You soon realize the courts are not too kind on folks who “accidentally shoot someone…. The point when you remove the safety on that non-DAO it doesn’t take much for it to fire while with a DAO the only way it fires is because you fully intended to fire it…

    One last point, before you reply seat back, think, then do some research before you jump in to defend you firearm ;-)
  2. doubleg

    doubleg Well-Known Member

    Just carry a single action 1911 with no saftey on. ;) DAO theory has just been disproved.:evil:
  3. TimboKhan

    TimboKhan Moderator

    Well, I think your wrong for several reasons, but I say that acknowledging that DAO guns are perfectly suitable carry weapons.

    Now to my reasons: First off, if it takes you 1.5 seconds to sweep a safety, then something is seriously amiss. Timing myself with my big kielbasa thumbs, it takes maybe .25 seconds to sweep a safety. That is simply an unrealistic time frame.

    Secondly, if your going to reference Massad Ayoob, I think it is important to note that in "Combat Handgunnery" he makes precisely no claim to the fact that DAO's are any better than SA or SA/DA guns. In fact, Mas Ayoob has consistently recommended guns that are either SA or SA/DA. I don't think he is all that worried about wrongful deaths simply because your not packing a DAO.

    Moreover, under stress it would be as easy, if not easier, to accidentally squeeze a round off simply because there isn't that little extra movement of wiping the safety or cocking the hammer. Don't believe me? Watch that video of the Las Vegas cop almost shooting a captured person in the head while she covers her partner. Thats a Glock, homey. Also, watch the video of the officer that goes on, specifically, about his "Glock 40" while in the classroom and then puts a round into the floor. Stress caused one accidental discharge, and being overconfident and forgetting basic gun safety caused the other. Again going back to Massad Ayoob, in the 5th edition of "Combat Handgunnery", which he wrote, Mas talks about people firing rounds off that they never even realized they fired because of stress. I submit that a DAO gun would provide no additional safety in those situations over an SA or SA/DA gun. Further, following the basic rules of gun safety, you should never have your finger on the trigger while pointing the gun at something you don't intend to destroy. Again, this rule applies evenly across all actions. Look, that old adage that the best safety is your finger is 100% true. SA or DA, the only way the gun is firing is if your finger is on the trigger, and safeties be damned.

    You also point out the speed in which you can shoot a DAO in a combat situation, but you fail to mention that it is much harder to learn to shoot DA than it is SA. Yes, single action guns have safeties, but in essence so does a DAO gun by merit of having long, heavy trigger pulls. Plus, consider that it is much harder to learn to shoot DAO effectively than it is SA simply because of that long heavy pull. Certainly, it is a skill that can be learned, but not everyone has the time or the inclination to do so, particularly when they are perfectly defended with their SA or SA/DA pistol. So to answer your question directly, I choose A because I am a pretty good SA shooter and a below average DA shooter. I will take accuracy over speed any day of the week.

    Finally, what do wrongful deaths have to do with any particular action? People have accidentally shot each other with lever actions, slide actions, blackpowder, semi, single, and fully automatic firearms, BB guns and every other type of gun you can think of. Defending your argument by saying that DAO is the way to go because of wrongful death is like saying that Hondas are the cars to drive because of slippery pavement. The two just don't match up.

    Notice that I have not once mentioned any particular gun. If you want to carry a DAO, more power to you. Plenty of people do, and plenty of people do so safely. However, plenty of people also carry single action and SA/DA guns just as safely, and plenty of people have used those guns successfully to defend themselves and/or others.
  4. sm

    sm member

    -Software not Hardware
    -Four Rules Firearm Safety
    -Matter of training, mindset, and practice.

    One should Never rely on any mechanical devices to insure safety. We have four rules of safety for a reason, couple with Software, training ,mindset and practice.
  5. AnthonyRSS

    AnthonyRSS Well-Known Member

  6. pale horse

    pale horse Well-Known Member

    I am glad you have found your perfect weapon. However, you need to look up the FBI stats on the 21 ft thing. 21ft was the maximum distance, the minimum was more like 4 ft.

    I choose A because my TRAINING takes over and the safety is a non issue. DAO is fine, but I do not prefer to use it in any capacity if I can help it.

    I reckon there are a hundred cases you could draw from books that would support any idea or prefrence. Training is final. If you train to fail you will.

    Notice I did not say anything about type of action, just training.
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 10, 2006
  7. Devonai

    Devonai Well-Known Member

    Are you stopping to call your mother first?

    My "research" is a few hundred hours of range time, both formal (US Army) and informal.

    I like DAO firearms. I have carried Glocks for many days (yes I know they aren't technically so). All of my current CCW pistols have manual safties and I use them. It is a simple matter of training to deactivate the safety and it takes virtually no extra time.

    Make it part of your draw stroke, and there is no problem.
  8. Headless Thompson Gunner

    Headless Thompson Gunner Well-Known Member

    Goofy trigger mechanisms don't make you safe. If you're counting upon the DAO trigger in your gun too keep you safe instead of proper gun-handling technique, then you have no business using ANY type of gun.

    Proper safety lies between the ears. No mechanical apparatus inside the gun will overcome your own ignorance and/or carelessness. It's the shooter, not the gun, that determines safety.

    Any gun, either DAO, DA/SA, or SA, is exactly as safe as it's user. No more, no less.

    BTW, DAO guns have multiple safeties, too.
    BTW #2, my single action 1911 only fires when I fully intend it to fire.

    Perhaps you should sit back, think, and do some research...
  9. PX15

    PX15 Well-Known Member

    I think I missed part of this "DAO is a SAFER carry gun" deal..

    I think a DA/SA is as safe, AND better choice for a carry gun than a DAO.

    You still have the ad/nd protection with the DA first round, but then you have a much lighter, potentially more accurate followup SA rounds..

    I don't care for a pistol with external safeties, as I consider my first DA round heavy trigger pull as my safety.

    My two favorite pistols are the Sig P239 & Walther P99c/AS. Both pistols have, if you prefer, and I do, a first round fired DA.. If you have time and interest either can be cocked for a light first round SA shot. Best of both worlds in my opinion.

    I have no argument with those folks who prefer DAO's, or SA's, that's their business. I just know what I prefer, and what works for me.

    Best Wishes,

    J. Pomeroy
  10. Soap

    Soap Well-Known Member

    And for next week's show: Glock vs. 1911. :banghead:

    sm's post = teh wisdom.
  11. treebeard

    treebeard Well-Known Member

    Just carry a wheelgun and call it a day!;)
  12. One of my DAO carry guns has a safety that works in similar fashion to my SA carry gun... I can draw and fire a DAO without a safety (P11) a DAO with a safety (PT145) and a SA with a safety (1911) with no measurable difference in reaction time.

    No gun goes off accidentally. Negligent people pull triggers accidentally.
  13. ZeSpectre

    ZeSpectre Well-Known Member

    I spent a lot of time considering this question recently and for me personally I've decided I would rather have either a DAO gun (first choice) or a DA/SA with decocker (second choice) for CCW.

    In part (for me) this is due to the ability to "restrike" a round that doesn't fire.

    Does that mean I think that other people are wrong or less safe? Not with modern firearms. Many layers of interlocks (plus the safety between your ears) mean that the odds of a gun just "going off" are almost microscopic at this point even if said firearm were dropped.
  14. kennedy

    kennedy Well-Known Member

    DAO all the way(S&W 4043)
  15. NailGun

    NailGun Well-Known Member

    DAO all the way. Smith 442 :D
  16. Seven High

    Seven High Well-Known Member

    Maximum1: I agree with you 100%. If I was responsible for arming a military or police force with pistols, I would definitely get them DAO weapons. I have seen too many accidental discharges in my time. DAO weapons are more "soldier proof".
  17. Alan Fud

    Alan Fud Well-Known Member

    " ... DAO is a SAFER carry gun ... "

    Depends on the trigger pull. If it's a Beretta D or Sig DAK, I would agree with it being a "'safer' carry gun". If it's a Glock, I would disagree.
  18. TC-TX

    TC-TX Well-Known Member

    What a crock...
  19. Double Naught Spy

    Double Naught Spy Sus Venator

    Do a little research yourself of more of Massad Ayoob's work and you will find that when it comes to first round misses, DA shooters tend to do more poorly with first shots than SA semi auto shooters. If you want to worry about wrongful death lawsuits, then worry about that first round miss that travels down range and hits the wrong person.

    Ayoob noted that DA/SA shooters tended to do much better with their second shots than their firsts, the long draw of the DA trigger throwing things off.

    So sure, you can argue that DAO is safer to carry, but based on the same source material, it can be argued that people tend to be poorer shots with it.
  20. Black Majik

    Black Majik Well-Known Member

    Oh boy...

    I've already responded in the other thread "Safer Carry Gun: Glock or 1911" http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=239876 to this post, but I gotta chuckle that you had to find the urge to start a thread about this. And quite frankly, I gotta question your level of training with this post. Theres just so much misinformation.

    Even reading your thread over and over, I still miss where you state facts on why the DAO is the safest action to carry. How about all those Glock NDs that occur (DEA guy comes to mind, so does the female officer at lowready with suspect on ground video), after all I thought DAO pistols were safer.

    And if the 1911 didn't have a manual safety, it's still more dangerous. How? It still has a Grip safety that needs to be depressed. Either way, the gun isn't going to go boom unless you want it to, unless you were negligent in the way you handle your firearms.

    All it takes is training, I'm not gonna repeat everything I stated in my reply to the other thread, but it doesn't take 1.5 seconds to take off a safety. It all depends on how you train, and what action you train on. For myself, I train on 1911s, so I swipe the safety instictively. Everytime that gun is drawn from my holster the safety is clicked off automatically. I'm sure I can shoot just as fast as someone on my level with a DAO gun or a DA/SA.

    Anyways, I've spent way too much time on this post. :rolleyes:

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