Don't like airweight snubs.
- Thread starter MUSICALGUNNUT45
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This thread and a recent one about J frames has me wanting to take my little Smith M 37 to the range next week and practice more with it.
It's gots it's niche in the over all scheme of things and although I wont carry it as much as the micro 380's,since I have it I might as well learn to shoot it a lot better than my past mediocre experience has been with it.
Again I can readily shoot my new LCP and Diamondback 380 much better than the Airweight J and I am just not sure why I am having so much trouble being accurate with it.
But in the few years of owning it that has been the case.
It's gots it's niche in the over all scheme of things and although I wont carry it as much as the micro 380's,since I have it I might as well learn to shoot it a lot better than my past mediocre experience has been with it.
Again I can readily shoot my new LCP and Diamondback 380 much better than the Airweight J and I am just not sure why I am having so much trouble being accurate with it.
But in the few years of owning it that has been the case.
I LOVE the way the custom grips feel that I put on my 360PD. I like having such a light gun that barely prints in a front pocket for taking out the trash.
I also enjoy having a small hand grenade to go off in someone's face if necessary. Like the gun? well, those are it's good points. Firing DA it started with over a 16 pound trigger pull. Never shot anything with a worse trigger. The MSRP is 999.00. That's bloody absurd.
Next, the lock. My gun locked up tight dry firing on snap caps. Had to have the lock removed. Now it has a weird takeup on the trigger.
CCW grips are really too small for me to try and shoot the gun accurately.
At 7 yards, I'm center of mass accurate, with 357 Fioochi ammunition.
Still, it's a 147 grain HP at 1140, or I also carry the 158 grain Lead HP, at 1040 fps from buffalobore. No difference in recoil, and I don't think most badguys will tell much of a difference, though the Fioochi makes for a better flash bang grenade effect.
Recoil: This little gun recoils at a speed usually reserved for bullet trains.
The light weight, and heavy ammunition combine to reach recoil speeds
that are not for humans. With heavier ammo, you can get that little gun
moving over 55 fps into your hand. IIRC, the above carry loads are around 45 fps, and, that's just too much for people to practice with much. .38's FMJ at 950 fps are a much better practice round, and cut the recoil in half.
The 2" or less barrel is a real problem. You loose a ton of velocity over a 3" or 3.5" barrel. It is unfortunate a longer barrel isn't an option.
As Oldfool said, carry guns are a compromise, well most of em. I have a PM9 and I'm much more accurate with it then the snub. Since the trigger pull is half that of a 360PD "tuned" trigger, it's not surprising.
Still, the 360PD makes a great late night opening the door gun, taking out the trash, etc. The PM 9 really needs Thunderwear or something to keep from printing, and my favorite Detonics Combatmaster really does.
I also enjoy having a small hand grenade to go off in someone's face if necessary. Like the gun? well, those are it's good points. Firing DA it started with over a 16 pound trigger pull. Never shot anything with a worse trigger. The MSRP is 999.00. That's bloody absurd.
Next, the lock. My gun locked up tight dry firing on snap caps. Had to have the lock removed. Now it has a weird takeup on the trigger.
CCW grips are really too small for me to try and shoot the gun accurately.
At 7 yards, I'm center of mass accurate, with 357 Fioochi ammunition.
Still, it's a 147 grain HP at 1140, or I also carry the 158 grain Lead HP, at 1040 fps from buffalobore. No difference in recoil, and I don't think most badguys will tell much of a difference, though the Fioochi makes for a better flash bang grenade effect.
Recoil: This little gun recoils at a speed usually reserved for bullet trains.
The light weight, and heavy ammunition combine to reach recoil speeds
that are not for humans. With heavier ammo, you can get that little gun
moving over 55 fps into your hand. IIRC, the above carry loads are around 45 fps, and, that's just too much for people to practice with much. .38's FMJ at 950 fps are a much better practice round, and cut the recoil in half.
The 2" or less barrel is a real problem. You loose a ton of velocity over a 3" or 3.5" barrel. It is unfortunate a longer barrel isn't an option.
As Oldfool said, carry guns are a compromise, well most of em. I have a PM9 and I'm much more accurate with it then the snub. Since the trigger pull is half that of a 360PD "tuned" trigger, it's not surprising.
Still, the 360PD makes a great late night opening the door gun, taking out the trash, etc. The PM 9 really needs Thunderwear or something to keep from printing, and my favorite Detonics Combatmaster really does.
clutch
Contributing Member
Darn, 5 pages, I had to go back to remind myself what the thread is titled.
My typical carry gun is a 442 with +p in it. I have a bersa .380, a M&P compact in .40, a XDM 4.5 in 9 and a 4" security six.
The 442 airweight with +p is a one box of ammo gun on the practice range. After a box, you put it away for another day when you feel like losing some more skin. With .38 spl loads, it is not too bad. I should take a tip from one of the responders and wear a glove during practice.
I love the fact that I can pocket carry this and no one is the wiser. The shape of my Bersa doesn't work out and my other guns are too big for summer. I'm too big to carry my larger arms since I'm more like Santa Claus then some stud with a six pack.
As far as recoil fully loaded verses the last round, if you ever find yourself emptying it, each round brings you closer and closer to something really bad. I doubt you will notice the sting in your hand, your mind will be on more pressing matters.
My one complaint is that my speed loaders don't clear the grip panel. I just bought a new dremel tool to replace the one that died due to defective engineering. I'm going to work on the left side grip so I can use a speed loader.
As far as the Scandium guns, well, I'm getting older, in my younger days, I'd give them a try but as some movie star once said, "A man's got to know his limitations".
Clutch
My typical carry gun is a 442 with +p in it. I have a bersa .380, a M&P compact in .40, a XDM 4.5 in 9 and a 4" security six.
The 442 airweight with +p is a one box of ammo gun on the practice range. After a box, you put it away for another day when you feel like losing some more skin. With .38 spl loads, it is not too bad. I should take a tip from one of the responders and wear a glove during practice.
I love the fact that I can pocket carry this and no one is the wiser. The shape of my Bersa doesn't work out and my other guns are too big for summer. I'm too big to carry my larger arms since I'm more like Santa Claus then some stud with a six pack.
As far as recoil fully loaded verses the last round, if you ever find yourself emptying it, each round brings you closer and closer to something really bad. I doubt you will notice the sting in your hand, your mind will be on more pressing matters.
My one complaint is that my speed loaders don't clear the grip panel. I just bought a new dremel tool to replace the one that died due to defective engineering. I'm going to work on the left side grip so I can use a speed loader.
As far as the Scandium guns, well, I'm getting older, in my younger days, I'd give them a try but as some movie star once said, "A man's got to know his limitations".
Clutch
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I prefer a nice chunk of pittsburg steel.
The metal can't be all that great if they have to use steel cylinders and inserts in the barrel. Why not buy the whole gun with the stuff that is used around the critical parts? You can't even get a descent pistol whip from one of those...air biscuit feather bantam welter weight contraptions.
Sorry, but I'll stick with my sp101. I'm disappointed in Ruger for jumping on the pot metal band wagon.
Here is an interesting read from a different forum.
http://www.practicallyshooting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2398
The metal can't be all that great if they have to use steel cylinders and inserts in the barrel. Why not buy the whole gun with the stuff that is used around the critical parts? You can't even get a descent pistol whip from one of those...air biscuit feather bantam welter weight contraptions.
Sorry, but I'll stick with my sp101. I'm disappointed in Ruger for jumping on the pot metal band wagon.
Here is an interesting read from a different forum.
http://www.practicallyshooting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2398
harmon rabb
Member
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It's not like Ruger discontinued the SP101 or has any plans to do so. They saw a market they weren't in and entered it. Big deal. For those of us who prefer a carry revolver to be a heavy chunk of steel you could beat someone to death with, the SP101 is still around
sm
member
1911Tuner and post 17
To which I will add:
These guns are proven in filling "niches".
-Always guns. Meaning a gun one will actually have on person all the time.
-Medical, injury, and related reasons.
Ask anyone that has had surgery, such as hip replacement about weight and conceal carry.
-Bed guns:
Now I was raised and mentored, that a snub nosed revolver was the bees knees if one was sick, injured, in-firmed ,recovering from surgery or just wanted a great "bed gun".
While a bobbed hammer was fine, the better choice was/is a "concealed hammer" , such as Smith 042, 442 or 642 for instance.
The gun is light, no hammer to hang on bed linens, and as Tuner pointed out in his post, at the distance to be used, in bed, getting a gun in play and fast, and at that distance...
Hard to beat.
Me and Mine actually did "lessons and set-ups" while in bed, and in recliners to replicate being sick and injured. WE also shared with those that were about to have surgery, and those that had, these lessons.
Airweights have and always will fill a niche.
To which I will add:
These guns are proven in filling "niches".
-Always guns. Meaning a gun one will actually have on person all the time.
-Medical, injury, and related reasons.
Ask anyone that has had surgery, such as hip replacement about weight and conceal carry.
-Bed guns:
Now I was raised and mentored, that a snub nosed revolver was the bees knees if one was sick, injured, in-firmed ,recovering from surgery or just wanted a great "bed gun".
While a bobbed hammer was fine, the better choice was/is a "concealed hammer" , such as Smith 042, 442 or 642 for instance.
The gun is light, no hammer to hang on bed linens, and as Tuner pointed out in his post, at the distance to be used, in bed, getting a gun in play and fast, and at that distance...
Hard to beat.
Me and Mine actually did "lessons and set-ups" while in bed, and in recliners to replicate being sick and injured. WE also shared with those that were about to have surgery, and those that had, these lessons.
Airweights have and always will fill a niche.
amd6547
Member
I use the original small magna grips plus a Tyler T grip on my airweight bodyguard, and dont feel any discomfort whatsoever using my favored 158gn +P SWCHP.
Guillermo
member
I wish more folks were as wise as you Clutch.
It would be scary to know how well the folks that carry those "scandium" J frames shoot them. I'll bet many are essentially unarmed.
Andrew Wyatt
Member
That's a sucker's bet.
A j-frame and a speed strip isn't really what i'd consider armed, except in all but the most nominal meaning of the word.
This is projection. Just because you can't shoot them worth a darn doesn't mean others can't. It's no different than the brady campaign talking about how those who carry guns willl get into road rage shootouts at every itersection
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Guillermo
member
I go to the range regularly. The competent J frame shot is rare. The one that can shoot a scandium well is exceptionally rare. The one that can shoot a scandium j frame .357 is a unicorn.
I know...I know. Some guys can shoot a hummingbird at 200 yards with 44 magnum made of Styrofoam clenched in your but cheeks while doing handstand pushups on the bow of an offshore racing boat at full throttle during a hurricane.
They must have private ranges or a different schedule than me.
Warp would disagree
bgr2014
Member
Carrying Airweights
I like my Airweight!!! My brother-in-law shot a big BG at about 10 ft. with +p knocked him out of his shoes, he BG dropped his gun and cell phone and he and his partner ran out the door. They had everyone laying on their stomach's with hands under head. Everytime the BG looked away he unbottned a button until he could get the gun out and under his head. Next time the BG turned around to check the other people he BIL put a slug in his back. BG now in jail.
I like my Airweight!!! My brother-in-law shot a big BG at about 10 ft. with +p knocked him out of his shoes, he BG dropped his gun and cell phone and he and his partner ran out the door. They had everyone laying on their stomach's with hands under head. Everytime the BG looked away he unbottned a button until he could get the gun out and under his head. Next time the BG turned around to check the other people he BIL put a slug in his back. BG now in jail.
Stainz
Member
Guillermo,
Aha, so you've heard of my prowess! I must correct some errors: it was a hummingbird's beak and even I am not foolish enough to go out in a hurricane... tropical depression, maybe!
One aspect of familiarization - and 24/7 carry - that saved my bacon once. Two gang bangers - an older guy (20's) and a young 'un (teen) - cornered me in the back of a three day old WallyWorld - in mid afternoon on a Friday. The older one got close enough, 3 ft at most, I could smell his rancid breath - I faced him and my right hand instantly grabbed the pocketed 642 in it's sheath in my rf pocket. I gritted my teeth in as menacing a pose as I could - and heard my wife call my name from several aisles over - she had seen the young accomplice sneaking up on me. The older one looked at him - he was ~8 ft from me - and shook his head. They turned - and left - at a high rate of speed. When I realized I hadn't soiled myself, I took off after them, after assurance from my wife that she was only in shock. A 'low-rider' sedan was leaving from in front of the store as I got there - the manager was behind me - I guess he was unaccustomed to fat old grey-haired guys running through his store - and nearly went in shock when I related the story to him. He asked what they wanted, all I could muster was, "I didn't see any 'Watchtowers'... I don't think they wanted to witness to me...". That was so good I used on my wife moments later. I had to take her home - she couldn't believe that would happen - in a 'nice' neighborhood. The manager said he'd called the police - and they would review the video from that part of the store. That camera wasn't on, as it turned out - but they were seen exiting the store. The LEO said I was fortunate - they were from a gang (jackets). The manager apologized - and when I reminded him that I was about to present and discharge a firearm - in his new store, he said a legal CCW is not a problem. Visions of inconsiderate shoppers on 'black Friday' - or line breakers in after Christmas return lines came to mind. My wife insists I cannot be serious for long.
That episode still bothers me, several years later. I do carry 24/7 - and it's an Airweight 642, most of the time. I do shoot it aperiodically - with warshots - to keep my skills honed. I'd rather shoot my SS revolvers any day of the week as .38 plinkers, of course. Lewis Seecamp goes a bit further in his neat little Rollex-like bottom feeder's (My wife's pocket carry is a Seecamp .32.) owner manual. He suggests that you buy a box of ammo - shoot a mag or two through his gun, clean it, load it and carry it, leaving the rest of the ammo in the box for later... and don't bother with a spare mag - get to a larger firearm. A pocket piece is to save your bacon - and I think that is sage advice - as long as you have something in your pocket. I do. There is a reason for the existence of Airweights. I didn't have to present it that time, much less fire it - but my training was good. I hope I never get that close to it's use ever again!
Stainz
Aha, so you've heard of my prowess! I must correct some errors: it was a hummingbird's beak and even I am not foolish enough to go out in a hurricane... tropical depression, maybe!
One aspect of familiarization - and 24/7 carry - that saved my bacon once. Two gang bangers - an older guy (20's) and a young 'un (teen) - cornered me in the back of a three day old WallyWorld - in mid afternoon on a Friday. The older one got close enough, 3 ft at most, I could smell his rancid breath - I faced him and my right hand instantly grabbed the pocketed 642 in it's sheath in my rf pocket. I gritted my teeth in as menacing a pose as I could - and heard my wife call my name from several aisles over - she had seen the young accomplice sneaking up on me. The older one looked at him - he was ~8 ft from me - and shook his head. They turned - and left - at a high rate of speed. When I realized I hadn't soiled myself, I took off after them, after assurance from my wife that she was only in shock. A 'low-rider' sedan was leaving from in front of the store as I got there - the manager was behind me - I guess he was unaccustomed to fat old grey-haired guys running through his store - and nearly went in shock when I related the story to him. He asked what they wanted, all I could muster was, "I didn't see any 'Watchtowers'... I don't think they wanted to witness to me...". That was so good I used on my wife moments later. I had to take her home - she couldn't believe that would happen - in a 'nice' neighborhood. The manager said he'd called the police - and they would review the video from that part of the store. That camera wasn't on, as it turned out - but they were seen exiting the store. The LEO said I was fortunate - they were from a gang (jackets). The manager apologized - and when I reminded him that I was about to present and discharge a firearm - in his new store, he said a legal CCW is not a problem. Visions of inconsiderate shoppers on 'black Friday' - or line breakers in after Christmas return lines came to mind. My wife insists I cannot be serious for long.
That episode still bothers me, several years later. I do carry 24/7 - and it's an Airweight 642, most of the time. I do shoot it aperiodically - with warshots - to keep my skills honed. I'd rather shoot my SS revolvers any day of the week as .38 plinkers, of course. Lewis Seecamp goes a bit further in his neat little Rollex-like bottom feeder's (My wife's pocket carry is a Seecamp .32.) owner manual. He suggests that you buy a box of ammo - shoot a mag or two through his gun, clean it, load it and carry it, leaving the rest of the ammo in the box for later... and don't bother with a spare mag - get to a larger firearm. A pocket piece is to save your bacon - and I think that is sage advice - as long as you have something in your pocket. I do. There is a reason for the existence of Airweights. I didn't have to present it that time, much less fire it - but my training was good. I hope I never get that close to it's use ever again!
Stainz
Guillermo
member
Stainz.
I am glad that you had your 642.
That was too close.
I hope none of us come that close and all this training is for naught.
I am glad that you had your 642.
That was too close.
I hope none of us come that close and all this training is for naught.
Out of curiousity, why do you favor the .357 round out of a snubbie? Its recoil is significantly greater than a .38 Special, while terminal ballistics are only slightly better.
Taking my cue from this, but I don't have data at hand at the moment: http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/index.htm#.38spl/.357mag
Doesn't look like it.
Though it's single source and can't be considered representative, it might be indicative -- from Speer's website, the Gold Dot Short Barrel in .38+P vs. .357 Magnum out of a 2" barrel:
.38+P = 860fps, 222 ft/lbs
.357 Magnum = 990fps, 294ft/lbs
And the Standard Gold Dots out of a 4" barrel:
.38+P = 945fps, 248ft/lbs
.357 Magnum = 1450fps, 584ft/lbs
A much greater difference between comparable .38 and .357 loads out of a 4" barrel than comparable .38 and .357 loads out of a 2" barrel.
Out of any barrel, the .357 load will have superior ballistics compared to the .38, but Speer's numbers indicate that moving down to a 2" barrel narrows the differences between the two calibers; the .357 is still better, but not by as much.
Ideally I'd like to see identical loads compared in 4" and 2 " barrels compared in the two calibers, but Speer's ballistic tables do help give shape to the question.
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