Four-Year-Old Girl Shoots Herself at Sam's Club

[cassandrasdaddy]

thank god/diety of your choice for that news.

 

[SSN Vet]

This sad story illustrates exactly why my wife does NOT want to even consider carrying a personal protection sidearm.

My own policies are that ALL of my firearms are kept:

under lock and key (to include loaded revolver in quick access gun vault)

or

holstered on the body

or

in glovebox in unoccupied (i.e. no kids) locked truck while I'm at P.O. or such

or

unloaded and unlocked, but cased for transport to range

or

unloaded and unlocked but under my direct control while I'm cleaning, tinkering, etc... (usually long after kiddies go to bed).

That's pretty much it and should be plenty safe with my own curious four year old daughter.

After reading up on many reported home invasions, I don't really feel that the "primary home defense" weapon upstairs in the gunvault will provide quick enough response for every situation and feel the need to have a piece more readilly at hand. But I ruled out "hiding spots" and such some time ago, after forgetting to lock things up at night on one occasion (There for but the grace of God go I). I sometimes carry in the house, but that's one place where I need to let my guard down (considering that I selected my state/town/home location to minimize these kind of risks to start with). Besides, if I fall asleep on the couch with my carry piece on my belt, that's not exactly my idea of secure storage.

Life is a never ending series of risk management decisions, however, and I've concluded that I am much more at risk to have a child accidentally shot than I am of having a premeditated preditory home invasion. Hence, I error on the side of keeping things lockedup.

I do want to get an addtional gun vault to keep on the ground floor. That would go a long ways towards improving my security plan.

Note to self....if ever convince my wife to carry, make sure we rule out purse carry.

And OBTW....

a four year old can be easilly and affectively trained to not touch Daddy's gun, the hot wood stove, or to stick there fingers in the fan or light socket....

BUT....

you can NEVER depend on a four year old to faultlessly follow those instruction 100% of the time. One mistake is all it takes. Four year olds make several mistakes every day. At least mine do.

 

[woad_yurt]

It's an avoidable shame. One should always be in control of their firearms, whether or not there are children about.

BTW, purse carry is crazy. A purse is the first thing a thief will grab. I was with someone who had her purse snatched. It took all of a 1/2 second and the guy ran like a cheetah into the crowd, around the corner and was gone before I knew what happened. A gun should be carried on your person.

 

[Boanerge]

Grand ma's fault safety issue

Galco has a purse with a lockable Handgun Pouch!!!

 

[swifteagle]

On body carry is best. A fanny pack, IWB holster, or a garter belt holster would do nicely, and would keep the gun in the control of the gun owner.

 

[RPCVYemen]

My child is two and has been taught that knifes, the stove and electical sockets are not to play with. She also knows that Mom is going to catch her if she gets into something she is not supposed to.

I am not sure I buy that training a child is very effective at a young age. I saw a study quite a while back (I don't have a cite) that didn't find much difference in the actual behavior of young boys (under 10) who found a handgun under a coffee table in a room who had received (probably brief) handgun safety training, and who had not. Whether they had been trained or not, the really young ones picked up the gun pointed it at each other, pulled the trigger and shouted "Bang!" Training didn't make any difference in the behavior - unless an adult was present in the room.

This was a long time ago (my kids are older now). But I pretty much decided that even though I had my kids sit through the Eddy Eagle training, I would never rely on that training.

Mike

 

[LiquidTension]

The girl is in stable condition and on a respirator. The bullet was recovered from her clothing apparently. .32 caliber.

 

[Owen]

with the four year-olds I've been around "Don't Touch" means "don't Touch while I'm watching"

 

[john917v]

I agree with Larry E "Tragic, and more ammunition for the gun banners unfortunately.

It's too bad that the little girl's parents and grandparents didn't want to damage her self esteem by teaching her to keep her hands to herself and out of other people's stuff. The grandmother could most certainly have been more careful and observant too."

I also agree w/ the post right above mine. I tested my cousins once with my unloaded 917V, w/o a bolt, and watched from where they couldn't see, they passed, not even a touch.

I taught a very close friend's son that knives, strangers, Michael Jackson, etc. were dangerous to kids, and that he should never be around them. I would test him, and ask if he wanted to play with the knife, and he'd get anxious if I insisted.

It's good that the child is in stable condition. I hope everything goes well for her. I wonder if the gun had the safety on while it was in the purse, and the round shouldn't have been chambered-nonhuman misfires, the mechanical failure-type have happened several times in the past.

 

[Bazooka Joe71]

And all are the same, if they aren't reasonably sure Mom is going to catch them they will do as they please. Mine has a mother that doesn't let the child out of her mind's eye a second!

Yes, well you are obviously not a fool that is going to leave a loaded firearm around a child...But in your first post it seemed to me that you insinuated it could somehow be the 4 year olds fault...Just because your two year old knows better doesn't mean this little girl would.

If I didn't read your post correctly then we really have nothing left to debate.

 

[Rugerlvr]

As the father of two small daughters, This story is my worst nightmare. I have my guns controlled at all times. But others don't. I'm a huge 2A supporter, and will defend everyone's rights, but I worry about how negligent some folks are.

 

[bnkrazy]

I saw a study quite a while back (I don't have a cite) that didn't find much difference in the actual behavior of young boys (under 10) who found a handgun under a coffee table in a room who had received (probably brief) handgun safety training, and who had not. Whether they had been trained or not, the really young ones picked up the gun pointed it at each other, pulled the trigger and shouted "Bang!" Training didn't make any difference in the behavior - unless an adult was present in the room.

This is interesting. My 4yo daughter knows not to touch firearms and instead to find us or an adult and tell them.

After several months of teaching her the basic rules and letting her look at my guns whenever she got curious and asked (removing the mystery), my wife and I decided to see if the training stuck.

We tested her on this the first time by leaving a confirmed unloaded pistol (and never out of our site) laying on the coffee table while I watched hidden inside a closet when she came into the room after playing in another. It took her a few seconds to notice it laying there and once she did she walked over to look it over, apparently trying to figure out if it was real or not. She never touched it, and after 5 seconds or so, she turned around and called for mom to come get the gun daddy left on the table.

We've done this test (in different locations around the house) 3 times over the past year and each time she simply looks at it and then comes to find us...despite us really not going over that rule very often. I wonder if it is a girl vs. boy thing.

Still, I would never expect her to make the right choice at 4, but it is good to know at least some of what we teach her sticks.

 

[atblis]

Somebody once pointed out to me that the squeeze cocker mechanism on the HK P series pistols are probably too strong for a small child to activate.

 

[john917v]

It's got ever-actuated loading? Is that that grip-like section under the trigger guard?

 

[matt87]

No, it's a squeeze-cocker. Squeeze the lever (the grip-thing under the trigger guard) and the striker moves back. Takes about 7 lb IIRC. I don't know many young children that could lift 7lb, let alone squeeze that single-handed.

 

[WayneConrad]

Used to happen-and I supposed, still does--that a negligent parent would leave a kid in a car, and the kid would fiddle with the controls and start the car rolling. This was especially easy back when the shifter was on the steering wheel.

When that happens, is the news story about the parent, or the car?

When a parent leaves a toddler unattended and the toddler falls into a swimming pool, is the story about the negligent parent, or is the story about the swimming pool?

 

[JesseL]

No, it's a squeeze-cocker. Squeeze the lever (the grip-thing under the trigger guard) and the striker moves back. Takes about 7 lb IIRC. I don't know many young children that could lift 7lb, let alone squeeze that single-handed.

My 20 month old son (who is a little on the small side @ 24.25 lbs) can lift a full gallon of water (8lbs), has enough grip strength to suspend himself from a bar one handed, and regularly pushes furniture around that weighs several times what he does.

 

[Rugerlvr]

I agree with JesseL,

Never make assumptions about the physical capabilities of a toddler. They can, and will astonish you by what they can do.

 

[JCF]

Still, I would never expect her to make the right choice at 4, but it is good to know at least some of what we teach her sticks.

I think that's a great attitude.

To those who would suggest that 4 year olds are able to reliably exercise competent judgment around a loaded firearm, I would offer the following observation:

I have, during the course of my career, interviewed thousands upon thousands of children regarding their recollection of events as they relate to an abuse scenario and/or a criminal investigation. Many, many of these children have been in the 4 year-old range. I have also heard a very great number of their parents describe for me exactly what these children know, don't know, can and can't do, will and won't do, etc.

My experience has been that, developmentally and cognitively, there is no such a thing as an average 4 year old any more than there is such a thing as an average gun-owner. There is an absolutely ENORMOUS difference between children and their development at that stage. There are children that, at 4 years of age, can write full sentences, provide detailed descriptions, verbally express their emotions, play musical instruments, etc. There is also no shortage of 4 year olds who cannot be interviewed because their speech is unintelligible, they don't know even basic body parts (eyes and nose, etc.), they won't stop sucking their thumb when a stranger enters the room, they tend to poop in their diaper when a stranger enters the room, etc.

And, predictably, many parents are absolutely shocked at what their children say and do when objectively interviewed. In fact, the PD I worked for (in a very gun-friendly community) conducted a gun-safety experiment, like the one described, in conjunction with local media. Utilizing a disabled service weapon, several "well-trained" children, well over 4 years of age (one of them the child of a high-ranking police official), were observed in a room with a camera and one way mirror. Upon finding the weapon, to the astonishment and high dismay of each of the parents (all gun-owners and very confident of their children), all but one picked the gun up and began to manipulate it. All of them realized a need to tell a parent, but not before playing with the gun. One of the children began pointing the gun in various directions and having a pretend shootout. Another took up a defensive position behind the door as if waiting to shoot an intruder.

While I think it is reasonable to teach children about gun-safety at an early age, it is, IMHO, absolute negligence and madness of the highest order to expect good judgment from a 4 year old to the extent of leaving a loaded gun accessible to them.

YMMV.

 

[Citroen]

Truly a tragic accident!

Prayers are in order for the girl, her parents and the grandparents!

To put this accident into some perspective we should also remember that every summer some parent (or guardian) leaves their child alone in a locked automobile - only to have the temperature inside the car reach a level that often is fatal for the child; every summer children, left unattended for just a moment, fall into a pool and drown and just recently, in my area, a child slipped from his parent's hand and ran under a protective guard rail in the mountains only to fall to his death.

The media my see it another way but in every case it was the ACTION of someone and not an object that was at fault.

John
Charlotte, NC

 

[3KillerBs]

No, it's a squeeze-cocker. Squeeze the lever (the grip-thing under the trigger guard) and the striker moves back. Takes about 7 lb IIRC. I don't know many young children that could lift 7lb, let alone squeeze that single-handed.

7lbs? That would be easy for my current 2yo or for his oldest brother when he was little (he helped us carry rocks and bricks when doing landscaping before he was 3). By 4 even my girl could carry a 10lb bag of potatoes.

And I would be certain that the one who disassembled the covers from the baseboard hot water heaters shortly after he learned to walk would figure out how to activate that squeeze cocker through some combination of tools and body weight.

 

[Owen Sparks]

I know of one dim witted female who had a loaded glock in her purse. A lipstick tube found it's way into the trigger guard. The purse was on the front seat of her car when a third passengers got in squashing the purse between her hip and his, BANG! No one was hit but it scared the crap out of everyone.

 

[Zoogster]

I don't know many young children that could lift 7lb, let alone squeeze that single-handed.

Also keep in mind that children can shoot themselves gripping the gun backwards and firing with thier thumb on the trigger.
So you could say the trigger pull on many firearms with heavy DAO triggers is too much for most children to pull with thier index finger, and you might be right. That however means very little since it can be held any number of ways and a thumb can pull the trigger just as well held in reverse.
Thier weight on top of the gun would cock it just fine. Little children often lean on things they are playing around with.

I wouldn't assume mechanisms intended for adults carrying the firearm in the proper way apply to children holding the gun backwards or leaning on the gun applying thier weight.

 

[OOOXOOO]

Purse carry should still involve a holster. It takes my wife ten minutes to find her keys or her cell phone in her purse.

 

[JesseL]

I wouldn't assume mechanisms intended for adults carrying the firearm in the proper way apply to children holding the gun backwards or leaning on the gun applying thier weight.

Yep, it wouldn't surprise me a bit to see a determined toddler prop a gun up on the floor with the muzzle pointing up and use their toe to actuate the trigger.