Greatest Battle Rifle Ever

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As usual, the argument is already 3 pages in before anyone sets down the definition of what we are arguing about. What is being argued here?

1. the greatest single technological advance in battle rifles?
2. the greatest battlefield advantage over contemporaries?
3. the most widely accepted and used innovation?
4. the most reliable?
5. the most tacticool?
6. screw history, whats the most effective rifle available to me now?
(a) what role is the owner playing? Infantry? Guerrilla? Militia?
(b) what theater or geographical are of ops?

etc., etc. etc. the original poster was happy with his battle rifle and wanted to incite some commentary and he has done it.

Glad you are happy with your rifle, and next time you want a cogent discussion maybe you could define the parameters and frame the discussion a bit more.
 
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My answer, anything better than a pointy stick.

Really, it dosent matter what the best rifle is. The best rifle is the one you own, are comfortable with, and can make work for you.


This is my rifle.
There are many like it, but this one is MINE.
My rifle is my best friend. It is my life.
I must master it as I must master my life.
My rifle without me is useless. Without my rifle, I am useless.
I must fire my rifle true.
I must shoot straighter than my enemy who is trying to kill me.
I must shoot him before he shoots me. I will...
My rifle and myself know that what counts in war is not the rounds we fire,
the noise of our bursts, nor the smoke we make.
We know it is the hits that count. We will hit...
My rifle is human, even as I, because it is my life.
Thus, I will learn it as a brother.
I will learn its weaknesses, its strengths, its parts, its accessories,
its sights, and its barrel.
I will ever guard it against the ravages of weather and damage.
I will keep my rifle clean and ready, even as I am clean and ready.
We will become part of each other. We will...
Before God I swear this creed.
My rifle and myself are the defenders of my country.
We are the masters of our enemy.
We are the saviors of my life.
So be it, until there is no enemy, but PEACE.
 
I guess that the M16A2 has been deemed unworthy of "greatest battle rifle" status. Either way, it still gets my vote.
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The general argument is that the 5.56 family of rifles don't fit the "battle rifle" category but rather "assault rifle".

Battle rifles are, and it can be a religious thing sometimes, generally described as using a "major" cartridge while assault rifles use an intermediate cartridge.

I'm gonna have to go with the FAL in the battle rifle category worldwide, though the Garand always holds a special place for Americans.
 
Best battle rifle of all time should be measured by...years of service, number or wars used in, Quantity produced, and number of countries odopting it.

By that critieria, I would estimated the ranking thus:

1. enfield
2. AK
3. mauser(all variants)
4. FAL
5. G3/CETME
6. AR
7. M14

As time goes on, naturally these rankings will change based on my criteria. The rifles no longer in production will drop, as the ones still in production rise higher. In another 25 years, I see it this way:

1. AK
2. AR
3. G3/CETME
4. FAL
5. enfield
6. mauser
7. M14

M1 Garand is nowhere near the top 5, let alone first place.
 
Greatest Battle Rifle of All Time should always be based on others in use at the time. Titanic made more money than Gone with the Wind, but when you adjust for inflation, GWTW is still a bigger movie (biggest of all time). Context really does matter.

Ash
 
Best battle rifle of all time should be measured by...years of service, number or wars used in, Quantity produced, and number of countries odopting it.
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By your criteria, the M14 doesn't have much business on the list -- the Moisin-Nagant has it beat -- longer service life (by a wide margin), many many more produced (more than even the SMLE), many more countries used it, and it saw service in more wars. The M1 Garand has it beat -- much longer service life as a standard service rifle (almost 30 years versus 7 years -- a handful of DMRs don't really count), many many more produced (four times as many M1s), and many more nations adopted it as a standard weapon, and it saw major service in more wars.

The Chinese Type 81 rifle probably has the M14 beaten as well on all counts, and it only narrowly noses out the Czech vz.58. Hell, the Galil may or may not have the M14 beaten on numbers produced, but it's exported better and definitely fired more shots in anger on more battlefield.

Some Americans have an inordinate fondness for the M14, but its really more of a minor footnote of a weapon, not anything that has any business on Top XYZ lists.
 
M14 is still in use as a sniper rifle. I didn't think about the SKS or the moisin-nagant. they should be on the list.

M1 garand should not be on the list and does not boast a longer service life than the m14. Actually, you could really call them the same rifle. Make number seven "m14/m1a/m1 garand". Does that make you feel better?

Galil is an AK. it's on the list.

vz 58? how many countries use it? one? two? How many wars has it been in?

chinese type 81? How many years of service? How many countries adopted it? Pretty poor showing imo. Besides, it's basically an AK. I would lump it in with the AK. So it's already on the list.

Slam fire says: "Greatest Battle rifle was the Brown Bess.

Made from 1722 to 1860.

Beat that anyone."

The enfield is still in use in india and was manufactured well into the 1980s, and may still be manufactured somewhere. Production began in 1895. So it comes close to the brown bess in longevity, and certainly beats it in production numbers and number of countries adopting it.
 
'Chuck Spears: As opposed to the currently used M-14? '


No as opposed to the M-4 carbine. The ballistics of the cartridge out of it will not do the job needed at 200-500yds.

And yes I am a nice fellow, former Marine, and competition shooter. Try the M4, with issue ammo, at the above range and THEN tell me a Garand won't do the job better! :neener:

Oneshooter
Livin in Texas
 
oneshooter said:
No as opposed to the M-4 carbine. The ballistics of the cartridge out of it will not do the job needed at 200-500yds.
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But our troops aren't limited to the M4. We have M14's in service right now for certain uses. And in those scenarios they are far superior to the Garand. You said those particular soldiers at the range loved the ballistics of the Garand and wouldn't mind taking it into battle. But if they wanted a battle rifle with those kind of ballistics then they'd be much better off with one of the M14's we're currently using in battle.
 
Maybe Chuck should think for a second, yep, i'm old, but that M1 saved my butt more times than i care to count! Get one, shoot it, then try telling me its not the greatest!!! In my time i carressed that sweet rifle more times than i ever did my wife!
 
When you boil it down though, it doesn't matter if the Garand or M14 is better at 500 yards. How many of our soldiers are skilled enough to make a combat kill at 500 yards? The ones that are skilled enough are equipped with the proper rifles. And those rifles blow the Garand out of the water. Everyone else is perfectly fine with the 5.56mm since they are engaging enemies well within it's limitations. We just need to spend a little extra money and make sure those guys are shooting hollow or soft points. And no, we aren't restricted by the Hague Convention. The US didn't sign that document and isn't restricted by it.
 
senior said:
Maybe Chuck should think for a second, yep, i'm old, but that M1 saved my butt more times than i care to count! Get one, shoot it, then try telling me its not the greatest!!! In my time i carressed that sweet rifle more times than i ever did my wife!
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I already own one and have shot it extensively. I like my Garand and I enjoy its historical significance. But if you think it is the weapon of choice for modern combat then you are seriously mistaken. Hypothetically speaking, what if we had some Revolutionary War vets on this forum? They'd be preaching about their muskets and how it saved their lives and so on. Does that make their musket the best battle rifle ever? Wake up and smell the coffee. Modern firearms have far surpassed the Garand. It's history. It was a great rifle for its time. But its time was over half a century ago.
 
The M1 Garand is not that far behind technologically than what we have offered to us today.
 
The Brown Bess was not significantly better than the other muskets of the day (the Charleville, on which the Springfield was based, was just as good). And, besides, it was a smooth-bore, not a rifle.

The M14 doesn't count because it wasn't significantly better than the competition (AK, CETME/Hk, FAL, etc).

The M1 Garand belongs, and belongs BIG TIME, because it was considerably better than every other rifle fielded by any nation at the time it was adopted. Only the Soviets began WWII with a semi-auto, and it didn't reach full-adoption. The Germans never battle rifle in anything but trifle numbers their Assault Rifle were barely issued and made no significant impact on the war. Everyone else, EVERYONE ELSE, were using rifles based on designs of the late 1800's. Even the French MAS 36 was archaic when adopted.

The Spencer was used in large enough units that it can be counted the most advanced weapon used, when compared to the enemy, in the last 200 years.

Ash
 
The only place I can find a real definition of a battle rifle:
Wikipedia said:
A battle rifle is a rifle or carbine used by a military force, for martial purposes, that is unlike the rifles for civilian hunting and target shooting. Militarily, a main battle rifle is one that is used as a service rifle, such rifles are in bolt-action, semi-automatic, burst fire, and automatic models; some have selective fire capability.
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Now, Wikipedia goes on to distinguish battle rifles from assault rifles, but that seems contradictory to their above statements (which in no way excludes any assault rifles today from its definition), and, thus, it is my opinion that assault rifles, while distinct, are a subset of battle rifles.
(This line gets ever more blurred when you consider the original iteration of the Garand: 20-round magazine, .276 caliber, equal in power to .280 British--which was used in an assault rifle--but not full auto. Does this mean that semi-auto ARs and AKs are battle rifles but, somehow, the fully automatic versions aren't?)
Notice that the definition also includes carbines.
Greatest Battle rifle was the Brown Bess.
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As has been mentioned, the Brown Bess is not a battle rifle. Because it is not a rifle.

My list of Top 10 Battle Rifles of all time?
10. FAL
9. AR-15/M16/M4
8. StG-44
7. Garand
6. Mauser 98
5. Martini-Henry
4. Pattern 1853 Rifled Musket
3. Henry Rifle
2. Enfield/SMLE
1. AK-47
This list is based on LASTING IMPACT that the rifles had, not modern effectiveness. Either through length of service, breadth of service, innovation, or a mix, that is how I rated these rifles.
I realize that this list is very similar to American Rifleman's list.
That's because I largely agree with their choices, just not the order (though I don't blame them for putting the Garand at No. 1, considering their readership.).
Note that I chose some of these rifles, not for their individual service, but for the number of offspring they spawned (the Henry, etc.).
 
Garand=Greatest battle implement ever devised.

I would rate the AK-47 as a close second along with the FN FAL.
 
Maybe Chuck should think for a second, yep, i'm old, but that M1 saved my butt more times than i care to count! Get one, shoot it, then try telling me its not the greatest
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I'm sure cavemen were pretty happy when they finally made a bow but that doesn't make it the best weapon ever. The Garand is close to being obsolete on the modern battle field, because no weapon is truly obsolete.

The M1 Garand is not that far behind technologically than what we have offered to us today.
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True, but the 8mm Lebel used the first smokeless round, does that make it revolutionary? The M1 is special to Americans, but it certainly isn't the best, most used, or most recognized rifle. Although the AK meets two of those requirements :evil:

Garand=Greatest battle implement ever devised.
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Pretty sure the tank takes that one, Patton


Somebody kill this thread and make a more specific one...
HB
 
M14 is still in use as a sniper rifle. I didn't think about the SKS or the moisin-nagant. they should be on the list.

M1 garand should not be on the list and does not boast a longer service life than the m14. Actually, you could really call them the same rifle. Make number seven "m14/m1a/m1 garand". Does that make you feel better?
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M1A isn't a military rifle and never was.

The M14 sees very limited use as a designated marksmans rifle. Its lifespan as a general use service rifle was less than 100 months. That's an incredibly poor showing for anything that's supposed to be on a "greatest" list based on numbers produced, years used, etc.


Galil is an AK. it's on the list.
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It's essentially an AK, but my point is that a relatively minor AK variant has seen more combat use than the M14. The same point could be made about some of the Mauser makes and models that served in different places and times as well.

vz 58? how many countries use it? one? two? How many wars has it been in?
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Nearly a million built, and while it's only the primary service rifle of the Czech and Slovak armies, it's seen combat use in:

Vietnam (US involvement & Chinese-Vietnamese border war)
India-Pakistan border disputes and Indian counter-insurgency operations
Afghanistan (80s-Present, maybe earlier than that)
Iraq
Lebanon (70s-Present)
Various parts of Africa and elsewhere in the world

And I'm not sure where all else.

Basic point: Again, another minor design that rivals the "mighty" M14 in its "importance."

chinese type 81? How many years of service? How many countries adopted it? Pretty poor showing imo. Besides, it's basically an AK. I would lump it in with the AK. So it's already on the list.
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Internally it's about as much an AK as a vz.58 is . . . which is to say it isn't.

But it is the primary long gun of the world's largest military force (still having not been fully replaced by their new bullpup). While total production numbers seem sketchy, it's definitely millions and millions more than the M14, and it's seen combat use in SE Asia, South Asia and Africa.

Again, my point being that if your list is based on # built, # years service, and # of conflicts, then the M14 probably isn't even in the top 10.
 
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