Mannlicher
Member
probably not much of an exchange item. There has to be hundreds of millions of guns in America. No shortage here. Ammo and spare parts sound like a better idea to me.
Guns as medium of exchange
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The available supply of ammunition would probably dry up much faster than there would be any shortage of guns to go around. Presuming one already owns guns chambered for them, keeping a few extra boxes of the more commonly available calibers around could help both you and the guy you're trading with. If it happens to be one of your neighbors or friends, then so much the better, then you would have a commonly-armed and supplied support group as well.
brandyspaw
Member
I would have to agree that common ammo would be a better investment for a medium of exchange in those situations. There will be plenty of guns and most any other tool around as I would imagine many of these things would be plentifull in a protracted period of upheavel. However, things that are expendable such as ammo or nails, for example, will be of more value than say a gun or a hammer.
cortez kid
Member
Ammo, Ammo, Ammo
kid
kid
leadcounsel
member
Gas is to a car what ammo is to a gun....
Guns are important, but presumably you have many. Without gas a car is near worthless in a SHTF scenario, and without ammo guns are nearly worthless.
Guns are important, but presumably you have many. Without gas a car is near worthless in a SHTF scenario, and without ammo guns are nearly worthless.
KINGMAX
Member
Just spent my fun mony on ammo
went to the gun show - spent my $$$$ on ammo =
= OUCH
went to the gun show - spent my $$$$ on ammo =
= OUCHWhy would you sell a gun for gold? If someone has gold but doesn't have a gun, I am going to have gold AND a gun. Ever hear of the golden rule? He who has the gold makes the rules? I like the gun rule, he who has the guns, makes the rules and then takes the gold from the people that used to be his boss.
Just kidding. My plan for dealing with situations like this is not be part of it if I can help it. I will try and get as far away as fast as I can. I am not interested in fighting over scraps in a dying city or country. There are always places to go. If I have to use my guns to get out of the city, then they would have served the purpose well. I am not hunting for my food either, that is lame. I expect take out at least twice a week and one nice restrarant meal on the weekend.
Just kidding. My plan for dealing with situations like this is not be part of it if I can help it. I will try and get as far away as fast as I can. I am not interested in fighting over scraps in a dying city or country. There are always places to go. If I have to use my guns to get out of the city, then they would have served the purpose well. I am not hunting for my food either, that is lame. I expect take out at least twice a week and one nice restrarant meal on the weekend.
Short term, gold is good, but something people need to remember is that even TEOTWAWKI isn't going to last forever. Poeple will rebuild, eventually, and if you think you can manage a nest egg, that will be useful.
condoms are one thing that hasn't been mentioned. People are going to have other needs.
condoms are one thing that hasn't been mentioned. People are going to have other needs.
three different scenarios
Type one, short term localized upheaval.
Rodney King type riots, middle class and rich people fairly well removed from the action may be quite interested in a firearm and not want to deal with waiting periods, which is exactly what happened in California. Here you do have an excellent market for your medium value guns. I am thinking something like a bersa .380 and a box of 50 rounds would go for 3-5X standard value, be it cash or gold, because you can expect order to be restored, just don't want to worry about being killed by maurading gangs in the 2 weeks before it is restored. The chances of running out of gas, food, drinkable water is very low. People aren't starving, they are being murdered.
Any time you are going to worry about taking gold only because you worry about the stability of cash...well, I hope you plan on that gold being used to make your great great grandchild rich, because when things get that unstable raw cash, jewelry, fur coats, artworks, and gold aren't going to be valued much for years to come. The only exception to this would be in the face of an invading army, who will have no interest in the currency of the defeated nation but more than willing to accept gold and jewelry.
Type Two Longer term wider upheval.
Think Y2K. Large amounts of how stuff works right now is not working, be it computer related, terrorism takes out key infrastructure, big nuke test goes bad fries circuitry, etc etc. Here the aforementioned bersa plus 50 rounds is going to be very valueable again. However, the medium of exchange is going to be food, water, and gasoline. Then for an unarmed person or family group, a defensive firearm is going to be equal to roughyl half of the food, water, and gas they have. Your job will be to make sure you barter the gun with with individuals who are well stocked otherwise
Type Three - 6 months after, mess still giong
The fire has burnt itself out, but no government has been able to step up and fill the gap. Typical 'mad max' type senario. As mentioned, here the truely valuable commodity will be a .22 rifle and 1000 rounds of ammunition. You could probably trade that for a wife.
Type one, short term localized upheaval.
Rodney King type riots, middle class and rich people fairly well removed from the action may be quite interested in a firearm and not want to deal with waiting periods, which is exactly what happened in California. Here you do have an excellent market for your medium value guns. I am thinking something like a bersa .380 and a box of 50 rounds would go for 3-5X standard value, be it cash or gold, because you can expect order to be restored, just don't want to worry about being killed by maurading gangs in the 2 weeks before it is restored. The chances of running out of gas, food, drinkable water is very low. People aren't starving, they are being murdered.
Any time you are going to worry about taking gold only because you worry about the stability of cash...well, I hope you plan on that gold being used to make your great great grandchild rich, because when things get that unstable raw cash, jewelry, fur coats, artworks, and gold aren't going to be valued much for years to come. The only exception to this would be in the face of an invading army, who will have no interest in the currency of the defeated nation but more than willing to accept gold and jewelry.
Type Two Longer term wider upheval.
Think Y2K. Large amounts of how stuff works right now is not working, be it computer related, terrorism takes out key infrastructure, big nuke test goes bad fries circuitry, etc etc. Here the aforementioned bersa plus 50 rounds is going to be very valueable again. However, the medium of exchange is going to be food, water, and gasoline. Then for an unarmed person or family group, a defensive firearm is going to be equal to roughyl half of the food, water, and gas they have. Your job will be to make sure you barter the gun with with individuals who are well stocked otherwise
Type Three - 6 months after, mess still giong
The fire has burnt itself out, but no government has been able to step up and fill the gap. Typical 'mad max' type senario. As mentioned, here the truely valuable commodity will be a .22 rifle and 1000 rounds of ammunition. You could probably trade that for a wife.
Greetings from the Humungous!
There have been several comments here that people think gold will cease to have value in the event of a long term societal collapse. I would tentatively agree that in the short to middle term people would be far more concerned with the lower levels of Maslow's hierarchy and would prefer a .22 rifle with a box of 1000 rounds over a pound of gold. But over the long term...some kind of "currency" would gain accepted favor. Mostly for simple reasons; ease of transport, ease of exchange and measurement, etc.
Many primitive cultures have developed some form of exchange system around a common "currency" be it shells, jewels, wampum or what have you...and we wouldn't be starting totally from scratch. Very quickly, localized markets would rise...and merchants, former bankers or whatever would look for something uniform that could be used....and just like that the Federal Reserve will be reborn...LOL!
Regardless...I don't have enough gold or guns lying around to be anything more than a mere garbage picker in the Lord Humungous' army.
There have been several comments here that people think gold will cease to have value in the event of a long term societal collapse. I would tentatively agree that in the short to middle term people would be far more concerned with the lower levels of Maslow's hierarchy and would prefer a .22 rifle with a box of 1000 rounds over a pound of gold. But over the long term...some kind of "currency" would gain accepted favor. Mostly for simple reasons; ease of transport, ease of exchange and measurement, etc.
Many primitive cultures have developed some form of exchange system around a common "currency" be it shells, jewels, wampum or what have you...and we wouldn't be starting totally from scratch. Very quickly, localized markets would rise...and merchants, former bankers or whatever would look for something uniform that could be used....and just like that the Federal Reserve will be reborn...LOL!
Regardless...I don't have enough gold or guns lying around to be anything more than a mere garbage picker in the Lord Humungous' army.
I was kind of saying that. Short term it's every man for himself, then you start bartering, then you start looking for a currency to make trade easier. I'm looking at more silver than gold though. It's a bit more liquid(smaller denominations are easier), though it takes more space.
1 old 0311
member
In the aftermath of Katrina the people who WERE PREPARED, and left, found that that stack of $100.00 bills, or one ounce gold coins didn't buy a thing. If you can only get 3-4 gallons of gas, or 1-2 loves of bread are you going to pay $100.00, or one ounce of gold for it? IF you are going to go this route get $10.00's or $20.00's
Kevin, the gold and silver are for when the greenbacks are worthless. Right now, you have a government that will enforce the fact that they do have(though slowly dwindling) purchasing power. If the government or people stop refusing cash though, it won't matter if you have 100s or 20s. That route will only work with something like Katrina where you know that once you're out of the disaster, either through distance or time, you'll be able to buy stuff with it.
Clark
Member
I have a tiered survival plan;
1) Things go well, plan to retire in comfort
Things have gone well for 200 years, I have 30 years left, 85% chance of the same.
Real estate, stocks, retirement, gold, bonds, guns.
2) Things go bad locally with a few days to get out.
This is what goes wrong with 15% of the time
This could be from revolution, huge earthquake, terrorism,
Gold, passport, car, fly to Costa Rica from Canada.
3) Things go bad globally or very quickly locally
This could be from a comet, meteor, revolution, terrorism, revolution, nuke attack.
Meteors and comets are 100,000 year problems, .1% chance in my lifetime
Revolution will not be fast around here.
A nuke attack, never gas, or fuel air bombs could wreck infrastructure locally, but probably not anarchy
Food, water, medicine, guns, ammo, fuel
What does it all mean?
The chance I will need a gun or trade guns for niceties is small ~ .1%
But guns have made 3% compounded for me over the past 40 years, and that is not a bad investment.
If guns are outlawed, they could loose their value.
With the coming of cameras connected to computers, there will be no more private sales in a few years. All activity will be figured out.
1) Things go well, plan to retire in comfort
Things have gone well for 200 years, I have 30 years left, 85% chance of the same.
Real estate, stocks, retirement, gold, bonds, guns.
2) Things go bad locally with a few days to get out.
This is what goes wrong with 15% of the time
This could be from revolution, huge earthquake, terrorism,
Gold, passport, car, fly to Costa Rica from Canada.
3) Things go bad globally or very quickly locally
This could be from a comet, meteor, revolution, terrorism, revolution, nuke attack.
Meteors and comets are 100,000 year problems, .1% chance in my lifetime
Revolution will not be fast around here.
A nuke attack, never gas, or fuel air bombs could wreck infrastructure locally, but probably not anarchy
Food, water, medicine, guns, ammo, fuel
What does it all mean?
The chance I will need a gun or trade guns for niceties is small ~ .1%
But guns have made 3% compounded for me over the past 40 years, and that is not a bad investment.
If guns are outlawed, they could loose their value.
With the coming of cameras connected to computers, there will be no more private sales in a few years. All activity will be figured out.
Gold has been universal cash since before cash
Gold will always be valuable. Maybe not in an SHTF scenario when supplies are paramount, not bling. But it's been the universal cash all through man's time and the basis of many economies is derived from their gold coffers.
I don't see it being as useful for barter as stated for people buying firearms should anarchy break out. However, the Wild West ran off of gold as their datum for exchange a long time before our government got around to standardizing the dollar. Gold created the biggest migration of mankind in history during the California Gold Rush less than 200 years ago.
Gold not worth what money is, come on people, once society settles down after our government collapses, gold will again be the standard. In times of great stress if you are in line to be on the collecting end of a lot of this gold, I beleive it would be a good thing.
But during time of great societal duress, (think LA riots and beyond) your safety will be more important than gold. And trading guns for gold may have not be the safest venture once word gets out that you have an armory and a safe full of gold in your basement. Could quickly go from assets to liabilities if anarchy last more than a month and word gets out where these liberals from Hollywood have gotten their guns. That last parts' a joke, kind of.
jeepmor
Gold will always be valuable. Maybe not in an SHTF scenario when supplies are paramount, not bling. But it's been the universal cash all through man's time and the basis of many economies is derived from their gold coffers.
I don't see it being as useful for barter as stated for people buying firearms should anarchy break out. However, the Wild West ran off of gold as their datum for exchange a long time before our government got around to standardizing the dollar. Gold created the biggest migration of mankind in history during the California Gold Rush less than 200 years ago.
Gold not worth what money is, come on people, once society settles down after our government collapses, gold will again be the standard. In times of great stress if you are in line to be on the collecting end of a lot of this gold, I beleive it would be a good thing.
But during time of great societal duress, (think LA riots and beyond) your safety will be more important than gold. And trading guns for gold may have not be the safest venture once word gets out that you have an armory and a safe full of gold in your basement. Could quickly go from assets to liabilities if anarchy last more than a month and word gets out where these liberals from Hollywood have gotten their guns. That last parts' a joke, kind of.
jeepmor
OldSchooler
Member
I"ll try to spell it out plain. If the balloon goes up and society breaks down, I suspect there wont be much paying for anything - in gold or otherwise.
The scenario most people imagine in their mind is of some sort of gentle or Hollywood-esque collapse. Some here have broken it down into logical "degrees of breakdown," or tiers. In such scenarios, they inevitably "star" in their own version of "Paladin, Have Gun Will Travel". They're the Good Guy, of course, fighting and winning against the worst that mankind has to offer. That's human nature....
But in the real world of social collapse/upheaval/dismemberment, if someone knows you have weapons and they do not, two things will likely happen:
1. They will avoid you. That's Good.
2. They will attempt to take your weapons, one way or another. That's NOT good.
If they know you are armed and they are as well, then two things are likely:
1. They will avoid you. Even Better (since they are armed and desperate, just like you)
2. They will attempt to disarm you by any means and take your weapons. That's REAL Bad.
NOTE: Besides, "trading" for things like guns, as the original poster suggests only works in a civilized atmosphere. Does anyone remember the local gas pumps, whenever the supply has been threatened. Civility? Pleeeaase...
I'd like to suggest that you consider some alternate plans. Perhaps teaming up with like minded folks for mutual protection is one option - call it a gang if you want. Let's just hope the food doesn't run out too soon and you have enough of the right, stable sort of gangmembe--- er, "teammates" at your side.
Isolated seclusion is another option. However, unless you already ARE in the dark backlands of Wyoming and no one knows you are there, seclusion is a dream, the stuff of SOF backissues.
Oh, but it gets better. Remember, we're not really contemplating an Orwellian-style governmental takeover here. In that case, your guns will likely do little but get you in duece with those who are already better armed and organized than you can hope to be.
What all this academic discussion centers around is Breakdown. Rapid Breakdown. Compelling Upheaval Breakdown. In that case, what really matters is if you actually survive the collapse/cataclysm/ensuing anarchy. Guess what? Thats a long shot, as the median survival rate for most any calculated disaster scenario is rather low, whether you are armed or unarmed. Of course, we all believe we'll make it, right?
Whatever you choose to do for the long haul, for the short term I'd plan for gutwrenching, horrific, defecate-in-your-drawers survival if I were you. You can worry about becoming a weapons dealing, "New Age Donald Trump," later.
The scenario most people imagine in their mind is of some sort of gentle or Hollywood-esque collapse. Some here have broken it down into logical "degrees of breakdown," or tiers. In such scenarios, they inevitably "star" in their own version of "Paladin, Have Gun Will Travel". They're the Good Guy, of course, fighting and winning against the worst that mankind has to offer. That's human nature....
But in the real world of social collapse/upheaval/dismemberment, if someone knows you have weapons and they do not, two things will likely happen:
1. They will avoid you. That's Good.
2. They will attempt to take your weapons, one way or another. That's NOT good.
If they know you are armed and they are as well, then two things are likely:
1. They will avoid you. Even Better (since they are armed and desperate, just like you)
2. They will attempt to disarm you by any means and take your weapons. That's REAL Bad.
NOTE: Besides, "trading" for things like guns, as the original poster suggests only works in a civilized atmosphere. Does anyone remember the local gas pumps, whenever the supply has been threatened. Civility? Pleeeaase...
I'd like to suggest that you consider some alternate plans. Perhaps teaming up with like minded folks for mutual protection is one option - call it a gang if you want. Let's just hope the food doesn't run out too soon and you have enough of the right, stable sort of gangmembe--- er, "teammates" at your side.
Isolated seclusion is another option. However, unless you already ARE in the dark backlands of Wyoming and no one knows you are there, seclusion is a dream, the stuff of SOF backissues.
Oh, but it gets better. Remember, we're not really contemplating an Orwellian-style governmental takeover here. In that case, your guns will likely do little but get you in duece with those who are already better armed and organized than you can hope to be.
What all this academic discussion centers around is Breakdown. Rapid Breakdown. Compelling Upheaval Breakdown. In that case, what really matters is if you actually survive the collapse/cataclysm/ensuing anarchy. Guess what? Thats a long shot, as the median survival rate for most any calculated disaster scenario is rather low, whether you are armed or unarmed. Of course, we all believe we'll make it, right?
Whatever you choose to do for the long haul, for the short term I'd plan for gutwrenching, horrific, defecate-in-your-drawers survival if I were you. You can worry about becoming a weapons dealing, "New Age Donald Trump," later.
loadedround
Member
I alos tink the medium of exchange may be ammunition, not guns if and when the SHTF. I can something like 5ea 22lr's for a fresh egg, 2 dz 38 spec's for a lb of flour, 1bx/357's for a botlle of Jack Daniels. I hink you can see where this scenaro is going;. keep your ammo stocks up!
You really think enough upper class suburbanites have ounces of gold lying around?
People don't get all crazy from not having ammo. They do from not having smokes and alcohol. Not sure how long the smokes will keep, but if you want a sure fire medium of exchange, load up on Jim Beam. Hmmm, that could be taken the wrong way I suppose, so let me rephrase. Buy extra bottles of Jim Beam for trade purposes.
OldSchooler
Member
If you survive the breakdown, indeed, ammo and goodies like alcohol will be valued items. So will other medicines like antibiotics (available at any farm store for pigs). Hmmm what else? Gasoline maybe? Electrical generators w/ gasoline? Seeds and tools? I dunno.
But I like the idea of buying all the liquor you can in plastic bottles - the cheap stuff - and hoarding it. After the rioters and looters have trashed the liquor stores you could be sitting pretty.
Especially if you have the muscle and enough guns to protect your "wares."
Keep in mind that there wont be much in the way of law or enforcement of same other than the muzzle end of your gun.
But I like the idea of buying all the liquor you can in plastic bottles - the cheap stuff - and hoarding it. After the rioters and looters have trashed the liquor stores you could be sitting pretty.
Especially if you have the muscle and enough guns to protect your "wares."
Keep in mind that there wont be much in the way of law or enforcement of same other than the muzzle end of your gun.
In a SHTF situation, who would sell their firearm to get gold or silver?
Gold and silver will not keep me alive but food, water, arms and other essentials will. Only a fool would give up an essential item during a SHTF situation to get gold or silver. Gold and silvers only value is in its anticipated value in procuring essential items. I only have a few silver coins for barter and it is only for the possibility that I might find such a fool during such times.
Gold and silver will not keep me alive but food, water, arms and other essentials will. Only a fool would give up an essential item during a SHTF situation to get gold or silver. Gold and silvers only value is in its anticipated value in procuring essential items. I only have a few silver coins for barter and it is only for the possibility that I might find such a fool during such times.
I think the idea would be to sell/trade some of your "excess" firearms in the event of some kind of breakdown. The speculative value of "cheapy" firearms after the balloon goes up.
It is undeniable that ammo, guns and other items mentioned (alcohol, medicine, etc) would be of high value in a time where survival needs are high. But even in that case...to make transactions and transportation easier...some form of currency would be in use fairly quickly.
...even if it was paper certificates issued by an organization like the Templars. We will hold your goodies hear in Bartertown...and you can cash this in for like value over at our Never-neverland branch.
regarding 'Gold will always be valuable' and 'But it's been the universal cash all through man's time'
respectfully I disagree. It so happens that certain early cultures in the fertile crescent lached onto gold, and as these cultures had profound impact on all of the old world, they were all more than happy to deal in gold. (although there were plenty of other scarce resources that were also used as handily as cash...salt for example...and gold wasn't always that valuable, right around christ's birth, silver was more valuable per ounce...but the wisemen brought him gold because it was 'kingly and governmental' as silver wasn't being used for coinage the way gold was)
however, there have been plenty of cultures far removed from the fertile crecent who even though they had access to gold, used other materials for currency. Gold was viewed pretty much like a nice red feather, makes a nice ornament to wear and look nice, but not terribly valuable, and not a universal medium of exchange.
respectfully I disagree. It so happens that certain early cultures in the fertile crescent lached onto gold, and as these cultures had profound impact on all of the old world, they were all more than happy to deal in gold. (although there were plenty of other scarce resources that were also used as handily as cash...salt for example...and gold wasn't always that valuable, right around christ's birth, silver was more valuable per ounce...but the wisemen brought him gold because it was 'kingly and governmental' as silver wasn't being used for coinage the way gold was)
however, there have been plenty of cultures far removed from the fertile crecent who even though they had access to gold, used other materials for currency. Gold was viewed pretty much like a nice red feather, makes a nice ornament to wear and look nice, but not terribly valuable, and not a universal medium of exchange.
Cosmoline
Member
Ammunition and primers are probably a closer currency equivalent. Gold itself is almost never kept. People buy it and sell it without actually having it. And it's basically useless.
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