handgun ammo in war

[Bill B.]

why and how did the .45 FMJ stake it's claim as a man killer in war?

IMO the Grease Gun and the Thompson Sub had a whole lot to with that ................more than a 1911 I am quite sure!

 

[Vern Humphrey]

IMO the Grease Gun and the Thompson Sub had a whole lot to with that ................more than a 1911 I am quite sure!

The M1911 and the .45 ACP had a reputation long before the Thompson or Grease Gun came on the scene.

The M1911 got its baptism of fire at Bagsak Mountain in the Phillippines in 1913. It was carried and used at Tampico in 1914 and in Haiti in 1915. Duing the Mexican Punitive Expedition, in 1916, it was used in the cavalry charge at Ojos Azules. It was carried into the trenches in France in 1917 and 1918 -- where it was so effective in clearing trenches that Pershing ordered every infantryman be issued a .45 -- which is why the M1917 Colt and Smith and Wesson revolvers were issued. We couldn't produce M1911s fast enough.

Sergeant (then Corporal) Alvin York used an M1911 to shoot down a squad of Germans who charged him wheh his rifle was unloaded. Hanneken killed Charlemagne Peralte in Haiti with a .45 in 1919.

The .45 doesn't need the Grease Gun or the Thompson to make its reputation -- it did very nicely before those weapons came along.

 

[LeonCarr]

Mr. Logos,

The Walker Colt "Horse Pistol" was a .44, not the .45 you mentioned. Also, it was called the Horse Pistol because the handgun was so large it was usually carried x2 in holsters that hung over the saddle horn, not because it would kill a horse (even though it easily would).

Anyway, one of the reasons for the legendary stopping power of the .45 ACP is it was primarily used in warfare on small statued people (Moros, Japanese) or soldiers who had been in the war a long time and were mostly malnourished from being in the field for years (Germans/Nazis/Japanese). In a nutshell it is easier to stop somebody 5 feet tall and 100 pounds than a bigger healthier criminal who eats on a regular basis. That is why in the WWII post war period when the 1911 began to make inroads in Law Enforcement the cops found out that the legendary stopping power of the .45 was exactly that...a legend. That is when the hollow point rounds for the .45 (Super Vel, Winchester Silvertips, etc) started to come into being.

I am not hating on the .45 or any other cartridge (except the .25 auto ), but the above is what I know about use of the .45 in war, and how it got its reputation.

Just my .02,
LeonCarr

 

[tipoc]

As Vern said the .45 acp rep was made with ball ammo. After all there was nothing else that fed reliably in semis back then but FMJ.

Browning first produced the .45acp with a 200 gr. pill at about 900 fps from the GM. But the U.S. military wanted to reproduce, as much as they could, the 850-900 fps they got from the 250 gr. RNL bullet from the Colt SAA in .45 Colt. they had great confidence in that round which had proven it's worth for decades prior to the arrival of the 1911. So a 230 gr. pill at 825-850 fps came about for the 1911. This round built on the rep of the .45 Colt. It proved it's worth.

To understand why the U.S. dropped the battle rifle in 30-06 and .308 and went to a carbine and it's many variations in .223 you can reverse engineer it and ask "What did they have to counter the 7.62x39 from the SKS and later the AK?" and "Why were those carbines so dominant?"

The U.S. needed something that was more controllable in 3 round bursts, rapid fire, and full auto then the .308. Something you could clear a room with but still good at 150 yards and beyond. Something with 20 and 30 round mags. That's why the .223 and the M16 and all the variants that have come since.

tipoc

 

[W L Johnson]

and troops still complain about stopping power and ammunition

When haven't they?
Name one weapon in all of history that the troops haven't complained about.
Some troops even complained about the 30-06 in WW-II.

 

[Logos]

....there have been over 3,000 engineering changes in the M16. The current version is ultra-refined. And troops still complain about stopping power and ammunition.

Vern,

The .223 is a fine round that has served well for over forty years. If it were not a fine round it would be gone.......like the '06. But we're off topic talking about the .223 here.

The M16 is a fine weapon that has served well for over forty years. If it were not a fine weapon it would be GONE......like the M1 Carbine.

But we're off topic talking about the M16 here.

I can't begin to tell you how far off topic you are when you start to ask about how many people I've shot with an M16 firing the .223!!!



If you are trying to make the point that you don't know anything about firearms until you've killed somebody......that's silly.

Leon, it was a while back, but I suspect I just used the term "Horse Pistol" in a generic sense in referring to a gun large enough to be used as a club to kill a horse.......no reference to .44 or .45 intended, just smacking a horse in the head.

Guess I was off topic.

 

[John C]

I was there. I commanded an Infantry company (A-1/61 IN) in Northern I Corps. The people who rejected the .223 were right on the money.

Hey, Vern;

Having been a history major in college, I had to look up the 1/61 Infantry history. It turns out that you're immortalized on the internet by Michael Raffin:

Later, it became apparent that if it hadn't been for Alpha Company, we probably would have had more casualties. By late afternoon, one of its platoons had become mired, (APCs stuck in the mud) and pinned down as it received heavy enemy fire. Its commander, although wounded when a rocket hit his APC, went berserk (and he was kind of gung-ho already anyway) and led his men against enemy positions. His advance must have surprised the enemy, and their distraction allowed us to progress when we finally went in. But unlike berserkers, he then directed the evacuation of his own wounded until finally he had to be medevaced. (Later I learned his name was CAPT Vernon.)

This is from http://one-six-one.fifthinfantrydivision.com/kenty.htm

Thanks for your service.

Sorry to interrupt this thread. (The 1/61 Infantry history is quite interesting reading for those of you interested in the Vietnam War)

-John

 

[Erik M]

The U.S. military switched from the .45 Colt SAA to a .38 caliber revolver in 1892.

It proved to be incapable of stopping Moro warriors in fighting in the Philippines.

This was the .38 long colt, not the .38 special.

 

[Seven For Sure]

A 200 gr. 10mm FMJ @ 1200 - 1250 fps would make an excellent sidearm IMO.

 

[Byron]

The myth of taking three out and the m 16 with its M 193 bullet stays around for some reason. I was a Spec 4 with D Co,3/8th Inf,4th Inf Div 68-69. NVA do not stop to treat a wounded man nor did we. If a rifle is taken out of the fight it makes that point more vulnerable.Wounded men are Dangerous as Vern pointed out.My experience with the M 193 cartridge showed it to be quite lethal. When I got there,the M 193 had gone back to the original powder it was designed for,we had cleaning kits,LSA was a good lubricant and anyone in their right mind no matter what war it is, will keep their rifles clean. Byron

 

[James T Thomas]

extermination or termination?

The 230 grain 45 ACP round was thought at the time to give the fighting US soldier a better chance of battlefield, front on combat effectiveness, than the 9mm was showing for those shot in the back of the head while lined up, kneeling before a ditch. You do need better penetration for the latter.

 

[Byron]

I was privledged to know a man inthe N GA mountains that was a combat engineer.He landed ahead of the 4th Inf on Utah and was dismantling mines. He said about 30 days was about it for one having to do this. He was put in an infantry unit. He was able to get two German P-38's in shoulder holsters. He liked these when a room had to be cleared over a 45. Byron

 

[9mmepiphany]

than the 9mm was showing for those shot in the back of the head while lined up, kneeling before a ditch. You do need better penetration for the latter.

don't you mean the 7.62x25mm Tokarev?

 

[James T Thomas]

european gun for the masses

"9mmpip:"

"Da," Tokarev.

 

[justashooter in pa]

Yep, during the initial stages of WW1 calvary was still widely used.

and by the polish in the opening of the second war.

hitler's armies were never more than 25% mechanised. they used horses and wagons till the end, and trains wherever available.

 

[justashooter in pa]

Hard to imagine the velocity-cursed .45, penetrating enough horse to drop it.

google "thompson lagard tests".

oh hell, i'll do it for ya':

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thompson-LaGarde_Tests

what wiki doesn't tell you is that lung shots with the 30 luger and all the 38's left the animals standing for hours, and that lung shots with the 45 dropped them in minutes.

 

[JohnBT]

"If it were not a fine round it would be gone"

Thanks, I needed a good laugh.

John

 

[HatFried]

what wiki doesn't tell you is that lung shots with the 30 luger and all the 38's left the animals standing for hours, and that lung shots with the 45 dropped them in minutes.

Um...no.

7.65mm Luger
Weight: 92.5 grs.
Style: FMJ-FP
Velocity: 1420 FPS
Energy: 340 FPE Stag
Weight: 1200 – 1300 lbs.
00:00 - Shot through lungs left to right.
00:30 - Dead.

.38 Long Colt
Weight: 148 grs.
Style LRN
Velocity: 723 FPS
Energy: 191 FPE Stag
Weight: 1200 lbs.
00:00 - Shot through lungs; animal jumped around.
02:30 - Shot through lungs; animal jumped around.
03:20 - Shot again; staggered 30 second.
03:50 - Dead.

http://www.sightm1911.com/lib/history/background.htm