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Handling the gun while out of holster

Discussion in 'Handguns: General Discussion' started by Alexey931, Jun 13, 2013.

  1. Alexey931

    Alexey931 Well-Known Member


    Can't find anything on the subject, probably using wrong terminology. I mean, how to carry a handgun while moving about in a presumably dangerous situation, the gun already in hand.
  2. JTQ

    JTQ Well-Known Member

  3. Sam1911

    Sam1911 Moderator

  4. Keep your finger off the trigger. At work, they told use to keep the gun, straightarmed, at waist height, so that when the cops show up, it looks like you have training, and makes you the good guy in those crucial first seconds.
  5. Sam1911

    Sam1911 Moderator

    What kind of training does that make it look like you have?

    I mean to say, who's teaching that position? Seems better than the old Miami Vice routine of running around with it above your head pointed up in the air, but still has shortcomings.
  6. 9mmepiphany

    9mmepiphany Moderator

    I also used Position Sul for a long time, but it never felt very secure to me. Take a look at this explanation from the late Paul Gomez for some options.

    I've went to an elevated Position 3 during my last few working years
  7. 9mmepiphany

    9mmepiphany Moderator

    Maybe I'm not understanding your description of the position either, but it doesn't sound like any position I remember cops being trained to use.

    Are you referring to Low Ready?
  8. Sam1911

    Sam1911 Moderator

    The Averted 2 seems quite naturally a progression from Sul, and what one would naturally gravitate toward if you're manipulating objects or people with your support hand while using Sul.

    The Averted 3 looks fine, with the caveats that 1) it seems it would be somewhat easy to relax into an unsafe muzzle direction if you needed to work that way for long, and 2) it is a departure from the general tendency to avoid elevating the muzzle above horizontal that most good range practice dictates.
  9. Low Ready, yes. Description of a technique I've used almost never and never seen through shooting screens is difficult.
  10. 9mmepiphany

    9mmepiphany Moderator

    Yes, I use the Averted #2 when moving through people in a crowd. I got to try it with an MP-5 a while ago; works great

    Your are correct, it took me a while to get comfortable with it because of the old admonition that a BG could push your arms back into you. The warning only applies, if you don't/can't step back...and keep your hands clasped together. Your point 2) is very much a range protocol, Sul is much better for the range. I had to become much more muzzle aware when working with non-LEO

    In Advert 3, the gun is in about the same position your gun would be in when you perform a magazine change
  11. Alexey931

    Alexey931 Well-Known Member

    SUL looks like an acronym; anybody care to expand it?
  12. Tinman357

    Tinman357 Well-Known Member

    Sul.. Averted 3 and 2???? :confused: Wow, no compressed #3. How about the walter stance 47 with an inverted #2.5.

  13. dmazur

    dmazur Well-Known Member

    Sul is Portuguese for "South" (i.e. down).
  14. pockets

    pockets Well-Known Member

    I prefer 'RWP-16oz' (Reclining With Pint) stance.
    And what is this? Now I have to learn Portuguese too?
  15. Alexey931

    Alexey931 Well-Known Member

    You've made a point, actually. Those fancy things are possible on the range, but as soon as push comes to shove... In the realm of auditory exclusion and tunnel vision -- one drops everything more complicated than the two-handed grip. Useful rules must be simpler and far more natural than that.
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2013
  16. Sav .250

    Sav .250 Well-Known Member

    Trying to get educated after the fact (gun ownership) makes one wonder.
  17. Sam1911

    Sam1911 Moderator

    If you watch the Paul Gomez video that 9mmepiphany posted, he explains why the Brazilians started using it, and they called it the simplest thing they could, basically "South" or "down."

    Every word comes from somewhere. People from all over the world face the same needs. There's no acceptable reason why only 'mercans get to name stuff. :rolleyes:

    And really, is a three letter word too complex for ya? Would you prefer to call it, "that-one-where-you-tilt-the-gun-down-while-bringing-it-close-to-your-chest-and-flatten-the-support-hand-under-the-gun..."? Even the Germans would balk at a noun that long!

    There's nothing terribly fancy, complicated, or unnatural about any of these positions. You'll fight like you train, though with less skill. If you train to retract the gun into one of these safety stances when you aren't aiming it at someone who might need to be shot, you can get into the habit of not endangering others needlessly. If this is your standard practice, you'll find that you do it when you aren't deliberately thinking about it -- like when you're scared, alarmed, deafened, etc.

    Pick a safety or "muzzle aversion" posture that seems natural to you, then do it a few thousand times on the range as part of your regular practice, and you'll do it without thinking when you NEED to.

    That's the whole point of training. But if you've convinced yourself that you'll "drop everything more complicated than the two-handed grip," why even ask the question?
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2013
  18. Sam1911

    Sam1911 Moderator

    I really don't even know what to say to this.

    One should know everything there is to know (or even 1/10th of it?) before one buys a gun?

    One should STOP trying to get educated once one owns a gun?

    The whole sentiment seems precisely backward! I'd rather train a new gun owner who knows NOTHING -- and knows they know nothing -- than someone who thinks their brand new Glock somehow grants them a PhD in gun handling and gun fighting. Where does one learn if they've got to earn all their wisdom before they own a gun?

    Trust me, when someone's been "trained" by Jean-Claude van Damme, Steven Segal, Bruce Willis, Sly Stallone, "Ahnuld," John Wayne, etc., up there on the big screen, it is IMMEDIATELY clear.
  19. JTQ

    JTQ Well-Known Member

    Excellent point, Sam1911. I would think it is much easier to learn gun handling skills when you have a gun to train with. Don't Gunsite and Thunder Ranch (and others) make you take their classes with a gun?;)

    Here is some stuff from Dave Spaulding. He has a series of "stuff" with Ruger.

  20. Sam1911

    Sam1911 Moderator

    Spaulding has some good points about gun handling positions. What he doesn't get into there are the details that matter to the folks who came up with Sul, or the various other "muzzle aversion" positions that Paul Gomez showed in 9mmepiphany's video.

    That is to say, how to move in and around structures with a gun -- AND with "friendlies" or team mates that you NEVER want to cover with your muzzle. If you watch Spaulding's movements, at no point in his video could you safely stand in front of him. He'd either be pointing at your head, your chest, your stomach, groin, thighs, etc, with every one of his stances.

    Sul, the raised "3," or the exaggerated "2," all are intended that you can very deliberately and completely prevent sweeping a person who's very close to you while you have your gun drawn. If you move down a hall behind a LEO team partner, or your wife or child who you're trying to shepard to safety, and you use Spaulding's "3rd Eye" position, one trip or flinch would put a bullet right through their back.


    A note on the terms: We keep saying "2" and "3" and that seems to be confusing folks. What we're doing here is referencing the steps of the best-practice "4-count" draw stroke.

    Watch Mr. Gomez explain again: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4NKngkVXMGg You can start watching around 3:00 if you don't need the historic context.

    Basically a best, fastest, most secure gunfighting draw is broken down into 4 steps:
    1) Establish a firing grip on the gun, in the holster.

    2) Draw the gun straight up the side of the chest, while rotating it 90 deg. to point at the target. It stops beside the pectoral muscle, but not much forward of the front of the chest. From here you can fire from a solid "retention" position, including using the support hand to guard or fend off an attacker's advance and blows -- using your body index to roughly aim -- or you can continue to ...

    3) Gun is moved to the body centerline and support hand establishes grip on the gun as well. Still held horizontal, pointed at target. Gun may be fired from this position or continue to ...

    4) Extension to normal firing position. Gun fires as it reaches your comfortable extension point.

    (Developing in yourself the universal use of the 4-count draw stroke will make you faster on target and much more consistent, as well as building the fundamentals of a sound fighting-with-a-gun paradigm.)

    So these guard, or "muzzle aversion" positions are all variations on the 2nd or 3rd point of the normal draw stroke.

    "Sul" is just the 3-count position flattened against the chest to conserve room and to make the muzzle point at the floor, not your buddy's back, butt, or thighs.

    Averted 3, or raised 3, is just that same 3rd count modified to hold the angle of the gun above most likely danger areas.

    Averted 2 is simply the 2-count of the draw, but with the elbow lifted to rotate the muzzle back toward the holster. Said another way, Averted 2 is just stopping the normal draw stroke a split second before you rotate the gun toward the target -- or returning to that position from extension later on.

    I certainly understand that jargon can get folks confused but if we didn't choose a few terms to use for some of the common principles, it would lead to terrible complexity as we have to explain each detail every time we want to illustrate a point.
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2013

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