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help with ww2 infrared scopes and nightvision scopes info?

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by greenr18, Feb 13, 2009.

  1. greenr18

    greenr18 member

    Hi, I have a friend who refuses to believe the Nazis and the US had infrared and nightvision scopes. I've shown them pictures of the early infrared scopes on MP44s but they said they wont believe it with out design descriptions and diagrams of the design, anyone wanna help me out here? I know the US had some M1 carbines in ww2 that had night vision scopes that were huge like the mp44 infrared ones, had large battery packs, etc
  2. owlhoot

    owlhoot Well-Known Member

    We had them in Korea. They were called Starlight scopes. But I don't know about WWII.
  3. The Lone Haranguer

    The Lone Haranguer Well-Known Member

  4. 3LegDog

    3LegDog Member

  5. Sunray

    Sunray Well-Known Member

    "...called Starlight scopes..." Nope. Starlight scopes aren't IR. They were light magnifiers and not W.W. II. Vietnam.
    "...some M1 carbines in W. W. 2..." Nope. Korea.
    Wikipedia is not a reliable source. Anybody can post any kind of nonsense there. Lots of Internet myths get posted there as 'gospel'.
  6. neededausername

    neededausername Well-Known Member

    just did a quick search does this count
    German scope for the MP44

    ZG 1229 Vampir


    American Scope for the M1
    These infrared weapons were developed in 1943 by the Army, precisely to defeat the infiltration tactics of the Japanese. Although fewer than 500 units were actually used, the Sniperscope accounted for about 30% of total Japanese casualties suffered by small-arms fire during the first week of the Okinawa campaign.
  7. greenr18

    greenr18 member

    well i showed him some stuff and he says he believes it now but he said that after i showed him the wikipedia articles which leads me to believe he was just saying that to end the subject haha oh well. it is fascinating though that we had this stuff over 60 years ago though, i think the warsaw pact had copies of the mp44 infrared and nightvision scopes like the czechs with the VZ58 till the mid 70s in fact i think somewhere online i found a czech copy on a website for about $99.99 no clue if it worked but i wish i still knew where to get one itd be an awesome collectors item
  8. Deanimator

    Deanimator Well-Known Member

    Look in bookstores for the late Ian V. Hogg's various books on German secret projects. He covers everything from exploding pistol bullets to proximity fuses and everything in between.
  9. PvtPyle

    PvtPyle Well-Known Member

    So he doesn't believe you and is too dumb to look into himself. Let it go and move on.
  10. JWHardin

    JWHardin Active Member

    German Vampir and US T3

    The T3 hit the Pacific in 45' for combat trials and saw duty as issue in Korea.
    The Vampir was fitted both to the MP44 AND the MP40. Have a gutted out unit that was still attached to a deactivated MP40 Smg I purchased in Canada many years ago. Best data I have was that the Vampir went thru combat trials in late 44' to become a very limited issue item in 45'
    There are rumors of a Japanese unit based on Vampir technology however none have appeared to have survived
  11. Ingsoc75

    Ingsoc75 Well-Known Member

    I would be interested in seeing photos of your gutted out version for mp40.
  12. Pack

    Pack Well-Known Member

    Use the German

    The Reich did more with IR than most, so a google using the German language works pretty well.

    For example, do an image search of IR scheinwerfer panther, without quotes, to get some great photos.

    The first functional prototype of an Ir solution was presented to members of the Heereswaffenamt in 1939, mounted on a 3,7cm PaK 36 anti-tank gun.

    It was neglected, at the time, because the staff imposed the absurd requirement that the equipment should only be developed/deployed if it could offer the same hit probability as firing in broad daylight!

    In Fall, 1942, an evolution on that equipment was mounted on a 7,5cm PaK 40, with better results - and a lower bar was set in terms of hit capability. It was only then that work began in earnest towards deploying these systems.

    You may want to search the designations and nicknames of other IR equipment developed and deployed by the Wehrmacht, including:

    Zielgerat 1128, 1221, and 1222
    Fahrgerat 1250, 1252, and 1253
    Beobachtunsgerat 1251

    The technical term for the IR spotlights will be "Infrarot-Scheinwerfer", followed by a numerical expression of the diameter of the searchlight in question.

    Informal names for the IR equipment will inlclude:

    Uhu (Owl)
    Sperber (sparrow-hawk)
    Bildwandler (Biwa, for short)

    This all stemmed from the introduction of the Braunsche Rohre - cathode ray tube - by the German firm of AEG in 1934.

    All of this information is from the book Panther, by Thomas Anderson and Vincent Wai.

    They point to handy sources including a lenghty article in the March 1957 issue of the magazine Der Deutsche Soldat.

    Actual accounts of the IR equipment in combat use come from eyewitnesses, and are preserved in that article, the photography of Mr. Franz Schmidt, and the book Der Krieg in der Heimat, detailing IR use in combat around the town of Uelzen in the closing months of the war.
  13. Dre

    Dre New Member

    You guys are a goldmine, thx!

    Excuse me, gentlemen, I seem to have found myself in the midst of your forum quite by accident. You see, I was searching for information on the infrared weapns developed by the Germans during WWII for a model that I am building and a google search showed me a link... and here I am, having almost all of the information I was looking for contained within the replies of this one thread. Thank you, Pack, for research leads I have been looking for!
    So, quite by fortune I thank you all.

    FWIW, I am building a 1/35 PanzerSpahwagen 234/4 with IR gear because it seems the logical thing to do.
  14. JWarren

    JWarren Well-Known Member

    We are one of the few forums on the internet that sees that and says... "Hmm... yeah... that IS the logical thing to do..."


    -- John
  15. Ingsoc75

    Ingsoc75 Well-Known Member

    The WTS museum in Koblenz has a ZG1229 Vampir scope on display.
  16. Jezz

    Jezz New Member

    Hi Thread from the dead I guess, I'm new to this forum under much the same circumstances as DRE in post #13 however I'm mearly building a 1/35th panther Ausf G
    the twist is however I already built this model and presented it to it's former operator,My grandfarther,to which he as ussual critised every detail including the mention that the last tank he commanded had the nacht jager (IR) sight system.
    Intreged by this comment I questioned him further and in much detail he described to me how it appered.
    Now he has always been very elusive to what exactly he done during the war and to which unit he was posted however I do know he was captured in the Budapest area in early '45 and was a crewman in various forms on almost all types of tanks used by the germans,however at the same time he has gone into much depth about some experiences thankfully this was one of them whilst he did declare that he was never able to use it in a combat capacity he had trained and qualified on the system prior to being redeployed to Hungary and his decription was not that much in favor of the system for example he has told me that it's perfomance varied within the rev range of the engine and the view through the eye piece was upsidedown and was a dark red colour of which there was no depth perception and left much unseen however it did provide great vision for navigation by night but in his opinion not much else (I assume navigation via the stars?)
    whilst I guess it's a very general description and has the obvious depth perception issue I figured it would be of intrest to others as a first hand (well second hand now) account of a system similar to to the above described if not the same.
    He is still alive and very healthy to this day I just hope I get the chance to travel to his location with my work to show, if my work will allow me to bring him on base)and show him through some of the latest night vision technology (coincidently it's also german)

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