kwelz
Member
I expected them to be in the 40-50 dollar range.
How should I handle this?
- Thread starter kwelz
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PandaBearBG
Member
- Joined
- Aug 3, 2009
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Is there anyone who knows a honest gunsmith on how much it would actually cost to cut those mags? I am just curious, as to what a comparible price would be.
FlyinBryan
Member
so we are alking 25-35 dollars.
i would have more of an issue with the time frame than the cost. if i trusted him with my guns and accessories i would probably just eat it and continue to support the shop. maybe he will cut you a deal on your next visit, or has before even.
i try to take the good with the bad, and 30 or 40 dollars aint that bad when you consider all the possible outcomes with taking them elsewhere, like returning to pick them up and they are all butchered to hell, or worse.
there are so many outfits that rip folks off so bad every month, like local water utilities, the power companies, and banks and credit card companies, insurance agents, etc, etc, etc.,,,,,,, your smith is a saint compared to those types, not to mention being on our side of the fence when it comes to the very idea of firearms. cut him some slack and consider it a tip for even getting your mags back to you in the condition you had hoped for.
i would have more of an issue with the time frame than the cost. if i trusted him with my guns and accessories i would probably just eat it and continue to support the shop. maybe he will cut you a deal on your next visit, or has before even.
i try to take the good with the bad, and 30 or 40 dollars aint that bad when you consider all the possible outcomes with taking them elsewhere, like returning to pick them up and they are all butchered to hell, or worse.
there are so many outfits that rip folks off so bad every month, like local water utilities, the power companies, and banks and credit card companies, insurance agents, etc, etc, etc.,,,,,,, your smith is a saint compared to those types, not to mention being on our side of the fence when it comes to the very idea of firearms. cut him some slack and consider it a tip for even getting your mags back to you in the condition you had hoped for.
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
$25-$35 difference? So less than a box of factory ammo. 
Go see your 'smith. If you are pleased with the quality of the work, tell him so.
Then, politely and humbly, tell him that you feel that YOU should have asked for an estimate of both the time the job would take, and the cost -- and that any customer deserves these two things when asking for any work to be done.
Then tell him would have appreciated a call to let you know that the job had hit a snag and that it would take longer than expected -- and that he was planning to charge you for the new tooling.
BUT, that since neither of you asked for or offered any kind of estimate, you will be HAPPY to pay for his QUALITY work, and that you will be back to visit him when you need gunsmithing done. Then pay him, shake his hand, smile, and FORGET THE WHOLE THING.
As others have said, this is hardly worth stress between you. Quality skilled craftsmen are rare, and should be valued far above the cost of a cheap dinner out.
-Sam
Go see your 'smith. If you are pleased with the quality of the work, tell him so.
Then, politely and humbly, tell him that you feel that YOU should have asked for an estimate of both the time the job would take, and the cost -- and that any customer deserves these two things when asking for any work to be done.
Then tell him would have appreciated a call to let you know that the job had hit a snag and that it would take longer than expected -- and that he was planning to charge you for the new tooling.
BUT, that since neither of you asked for or offered any kind of estimate, you will be HAPPY to pay for his QUALITY work, and that you will be back to visit him when you need gunsmithing done. Then pay him, shake his hand, smile, and FORGET THE WHOLE THING.
As others have said, this is hardly worth stress between you. Quality skilled craftsmen are rare, and should be valued far above the cost of a cheap dinner out.
-Sam
Norinco982lover
Member
Sam1911 is right on.
~Norinco
kwelz
Member
I will of course be polite. However I must say that Humble is not in the cards. While I should have asked for an estimate up front he is also trying to charge far above what the work is worth. I could have purchased new mags already but for around 20 bucks. Adding the price I already paid for these mags I am looking at around 30 bucks a piece. A considerable difference in these times when money is tight. It may not even have been a big deal if he had not taken months to complete them, but he.
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
In your opinion. Unless he has posted a rate per hour and is invoicing you for time spent -- OR he had quoted you the price ahead of time, his work is worth whatever he says it is.
Custom work is always expensive. $10 more than a stock item doesn't seem much for a "customized" item.
It's no less tight for him than it is for you, and maybe more so. He may have been able to cover the costs of new tooling for a one-off job last year, but now he can't because his overhead has risen and his cash flow is very slim. A lot of places have stopped covering shipping costs for buyers, and ended all manner of other "freebies" because they have to keep the lights on and can't afford it anymore. And a lot of places have just closed their doors. Who knows, maybe this is SOP for him and he assumed you knew. Ask him, politely. He'll probably discuss it with you and might even reduce the cost himself if it seems unfair.
I don't think it is right that he didn't give you an estimate and then stick to it. But, for $25-$30 extra, he sure won't retire early on what he's making off of you. Chalk it up to experience and be happy you now have mags that work.
IMHO
-Sam
So her charged you $75 for what probably took an hour or so (10 to 15 minutes per mag)? That's not an unreasonable labor rate for a professional regardless of whether or not he had to buy new tooling. I have a feeling you paid for his labor and perhaps waited for his new tool to arrive.
If $75 an hour seems steep for gun smith work, you're in for a big surprise if your car breaks down or you have to call a plumber.
If $75 an hour seems steep for gun smith work, you're in for a big surprise if your car breaks down or you have to call a plumber.
SSN Vet
Member
When we quote jobs where I work, if special tooling is required, it is factored into the price. I'm not talking about generic blades and cutters.... but something different, to be used exclusively on that job. I suggest you ask what specifically this "special tooling" was and ask to see it.
If our customer's pay for tooling, they can ask for it returned with the order, or ask that we keep it on file for the next order. I think you should be able to do the same.
If he wants to keep it, suggest that you shouldn't pay for it....
worst case scenario... you bought some special tooling that's of no value to you.
best case scenario... he wants to keep the tools and reduces you price.
as for $15 dollars/mag being fair....
How long to you think it took him? $75 is about the going rate for 90 minutes of a skilled machinist time. That would be about 18 min. each.... or more likely 10 min each with a ~1/2 hour set up. Doesn't sound to out of line to me...
Did he do a nice job? Do you want to stay on good terms with him.
I'd just ask to talk to him and politely say "Hey those mags looked great, but they wound up costing me a lot more than I anticipated, I wish I had know they were going to be a problem for you"
and then give him a chance to respond....
If our customer's pay for tooling, they can ask for it returned with the order, or ask that we keep it on file for the next order. I think you should be able to do the same.
If he wants to keep it, suggest that you shouldn't pay for it....
worst case scenario... you bought some special tooling that's of no value to you.
best case scenario... he wants to keep the tools and reduces you price.
as for $15 dollars/mag being fair....
How long to you think it took him? $75 is about the going rate for 90 minutes of a skilled machinist time. That would be about 18 min. each.... or more likely 10 min each with a ~1/2 hour set up. Doesn't sound to out of line to me...
Did he do a nice job? Do you want to stay on good terms with him.
I'd just ask to talk to him and politely say "Hey those mags looked great, but they wound up costing me a lot more than I anticipated, I wish I had know they were going to be a problem for you"
and then give him a chance to respond....
kwelz
Member
Well I went in and things did not go well.
First off I was very polite and after talking to people on here (Looking at you Sam) willing to pay the full amount if he didn't budge on it. However I still wanted to talk to him about it.
There were a couple people in the shop when I got there so I just made small talk till they left since I felt it was bad form to have this kind of discussion with other customers present.
I started off very polite and said "I wanted to talk a bit about the magazines. I was surprised at the cost." And at this point things went to hell. He immediately got an attitude and berated me about not knowing machining, etc. Honestly in the time I have been going there I have never seen him cop a holier than thou attitude till today.
I tried to keep my temper but it was pretty hard with the way he was talking to me. At no point did I yell or show anger but I can tell you I was pretty pissed. At one point he told me I could just leave and he could keep his magazines. Of course I responded that they were not his and if he kept them it would be theft. At that point I realized the conversation was going no where. I attempted to calm things down but he pretty much just keep up with his condescending tone about how I don't know machining so have no right to complain.
A couple more customers came in at this point and I stopped arguing with him. I didn't feel it was right to continue with people in the store again. If I decide I am completely done with him and I was wronged then yes I will let everyone and their brother l know how he treated me. But at that point I wanted to try to remain civil.
Right now I am extremely pissed. Not that he charged what he did, but that he had the attitude that he did and tried to throw back in my face that he has given me good deals in the past. I have always been one of his biggest proponents in this area I send people his way for Gunsmithing and refinishing work. I have defended him when people were not happy with his work and I have even paid him to correct work on my guns that were really his fault in the first place.
Now all that being said, the work he did on these mags was excellent. They look as good at the Stock RRA mag that came with the gun. But I am not sure how to proceed after how he acted.
ETS:
SSN Vet, the tooling required ended up being a set of carbide tools since he apparently broke one of his other tools working on one of the mags.
First off I was very polite and after talking to people on here (Looking at you Sam) willing to pay the full amount if he didn't budge on it. However I still wanted to talk to him about it.
There were a couple people in the shop when I got there so I just made small talk till they left since I felt it was bad form to have this kind of discussion with other customers present.
I started off very polite and said "I wanted to talk a bit about the magazines. I was surprised at the cost." And at this point things went to hell. He immediately got an attitude and berated me about not knowing machining, etc. Honestly in the time I have been going there I have never seen him cop a holier than thou attitude till today.
I tried to keep my temper but it was pretty hard with the way he was talking to me. At no point did I yell or show anger but I can tell you I was pretty pissed. At one point he told me I could just leave and he could keep his magazines. Of course I responded that they were not his and if he kept them it would be theft. At that point I realized the conversation was going no where. I attempted to calm things down but he pretty much just keep up with his condescending tone about how I don't know machining so have no right to complain.
A couple more customers came in at this point and I stopped arguing with him. I didn't feel it was right to continue with people in the store again. If I decide I am completely done with him and I was wronged then yes I will let everyone and their brother l know how he treated me. But at that point I wanted to try to remain civil.
Right now I am extremely pissed. Not that he charged what he did, but that he had the attitude that he did and tried to throw back in my face that he has given me good deals in the past. I have always been one of his biggest proponents in this area I send people his way for Gunsmithing and refinishing work. I have defended him when people were not happy with his work and I have even paid him to correct work on my guns that were really his fault in the first place.
Now all that being said, the work he did on these mags was excellent. They look as good at the Stock RRA mag that came with the gun. But I am not sure how to proceed after how he acted.
ETS:
SSN Vet, the tooling required ended up being a set of carbide tools since he apparently broke one of his other tools working on one of the mags.
Norinco982lover
Member
Ouch! Sounds like you took a pretty reasonable approach and he went off for no reason. Did you get the mags? And did you pay him? That is some crazy stuff. If you paid for the tools then you should get them...it is his cost of business for his tools... carbide drills or blades or whatever they were are not "specialty" items.
At least you found out his true self ...better now than later on a more expensive project.
Overall, the situation stinks. I would cut your losses and never speak with him again.
~Norinco
At least you found out his true self ...better now than later on a more expensive project.
Overall, the situation stinks.
I would cut your losses and never speak with him again. ~Norinco
kwelz
Member
I did go ahead and pay for the mags. I was not happy about it but he was holding them hostage. I would have to pay the same amount to get new mags and then cut them again myself.
He claims he told me how much they were going to be when he got the tools. Because he "Told me how much the tools cost" By the way he says the carbide parts were 68 bucks and that it took him 4 hours to cut the mags. So according to him it took him almost an hour per mag to do with professional equipment what I did in an hour with a Grinder and vice before.
Also it is possible that I was not as nice as I thought I sounded. I really don't believe that is the case but as we all know we are not always the best judge of ourselves.
He claims he told me how much they were going to be when he got the tools. Because he "Told me how much the tools cost" By the way he says the carbide parts were 68 bucks and that it took him 4 hours to cut the mags. So according to him it took him almost an hour per mag to do with professional equipment what I did in an hour with a Grinder and vice before.
Also it is possible that I was not as nice as I thought I sounded. I really don't believe that is the case but as we all know we are not always the best judge of ourselves.
Norinco982lover
Member
He did tell you it would be $75 because he got the tools..you said that in your first post. So when he finished the job he informed you of the price... but not in the middle.
So by his own account if he is not willing to give you the $68 in tools than his excuse of "I had to buy more tools so it is more expensive" does not stand.
I hate gun shops in general...this story isn't too encouraging
I'm glad you got your mags back.
~Norinco
So by his own account if he is not willing to give you the $68 in tools than his excuse of "I had to buy more tools so it is more expensive" does not stand.
I hate gun shops in general...this story isn't too encouraging
I'm glad you got your mags back.
~Norinco
I agree with Sam1911. Furthermore, I didn't see a definitive answer as to how long the job took. There seems to be speculation that it may have taken an hour, which seems to be the minimum most anything takes, so a $75 an hour rate is very reasonable.
I am a tradesman of sorts, and my minimum charge for anything that I do is $85. Even if it only takes me 10 minutes, the minimum is still $85. You have to realize that when you are selling your time, doing little crap jobs at $75 a pop is a very hard way to make a living.
I think you are also missing a very important point here, which is the job was done nearly perfectly (as per your description). A lot of customers assume a good job, and then focus only on price. Well, assuming good quality work is a bad assumption. You could have very easily taken that somewhere else and paid $50 and gotten such poor results that you would have had to either scrap the magazines or take them someplace else to have the work redone. Don't overlook this possibility. I've had people bring me work where they wasted $500-$1500 on recent, previous repair attempts which was money down the drain.
I am very careful to give people quotes before any work is done, whether or not they ask for it. That was the only real problem in this deal. What you think the job is worth is irrelevant, he can charge whatever he wants, and then you make the choice whether or not to proceed.
I am a tradesman of sorts, and my minimum charge for anything that I do is $85. Even if it only takes me 10 minutes, the minimum is still $85. You have to realize that when you are selling your time, doing little crap jobs at $75 a pop is a very hard way to make a living.
I think you are also missing a very important point here, which is the job was done nearly perfectly (as per your description). A lot of customers assume a good job, and then focus only on price. Well, assuming good quality work is a bad assumption. You could have very easily taken that somewhere else and paid $50 and gotten such poor results that you would have had to either scrap the magazines or take them someplace else to have the work redone. Don't overlook this possibility. I've had people bring me work where they wasted $500-$1500 on recent, previous repair attempts which was money down the drain.
I am very careful to give people quotes before any work is done, whether or not they ask for it. That was the only real problem in this deal. What you think the job is worth is irrelevant, he can charge whatever he wants, and then you make the choice whether or not to proceed.
kwelz
Member
Pweller he claims it took 4 hours of machining work. I still find this odd but he seems to think I am an idiot since I am not a machinist so who knows. Either way, at this point it isn't so much the cost, as I said earlier I am less worried about this that I am the attitude he showed today.
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
Good on you. Very reasonable.
Again, handled very much above board. Good job.
If that's just what you said, that is just about the perfect way to phrase it.
Wow! That is totally unexpected and completely unacceptable.
Good job. You couldn't "win" at that point anyway. Better to let the blow-hard blow out and not get your own blood-pressure up.
Many repair shops have some kind of posted policy that items left un-paid-for beyond a certain date are forfeited and will be sold to cover costs. Not sure how legal this is in this case, but it's probably not something you could take action on. Not for an item of so little actual value.
Sounds reasonable to me!
Yes. That is far more damning than his charge.
How to proceed? Take your very well modified mags and use them happily. Beyond that, don't give him any more business and feel free to advise others of his behavior. If he can't treat a customer with respect, then he doesn't deserve customers.
Some folks are in business for themselves because they don't have the social skills to work with another human being. Might be his problem.
IMHO, that does cross the line. Carbide cutters are a consumable item. If that's something that he keeps in stock and uses regularly, he has to account for breakage, wear, and eventual replacement. It is not reasonable or right to tack on an additional charge for what has to be viewed as normal wear & tear. Did he charge you 'cause he had to change the roll of TP in the bathroom during your job, too?
I also don't personally believe that, either. It might have taken a 1/2 hour to set up, but after that, he shouldn't have needed 3-1/2 more hours to make a few simple cuts. I don't think the $75 is unreasonable for an hour's work, but if he really took 4 hours to do it, no wonder he's such a jerk. Working that slowly must be terribly frustrating. He's only grossing $18.75 an hour and that won't keep the lights on for long!
Sorry for your frustrations. Sounds like you handled it well and he didn't.
Should be pretty easy to figure out how to proceed from here on out!
-Sam
flrfh213
Member
i skipped most of the bla-blah but if i do a job and need a tool I AM REQUIRED TO BUY IT and not the employer. if you paid for a tool to do your mags, you should have been handed the tool you paid for... if not he needs to eat the tool cost.....
mgregg85
Member
That sounds crappy but then again you didn't get an estimate.
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kwelz
Member
You all need to read my updates..
FlyinBryan
Member
as long as you feel like you made the right decision all is well.
at least its behind you now and you certainly aint gonna have to worry about dealing with him any more. (because im sure you wont go back and if you did im sure he would tell you to take a hike)
at least its behind you now and you certainly aint gonna have to worry about dealing with him any more. (because im sure you wont go back and if you did im sure he would tell you to take a hike)
KarenTOC
Member
I'll echo several other people's suggestions: Pay the money. Take your magazines. Find a new gunsmith.
A person whose services you pay for is a "professional."
Someone who regularly messes up is a "screwup."
Sounds like your gunsmith is a professional screwup.
A person whose services you pay for is a "professional."
Someone who regularly messes up is a "screwup."
Sounds like your gunsmith is a professional screwup.
Life's too short to deal with people who piss you off if you have other options (which is almost always the case).
Take it as a lesson and find another gunsmith.
Also - get quotes or estimates up front. Saves a lot of heartache. I always ask for ballpark "how long and how much" estimates.
If both are met within a reasonable margin, I'm a happy camper and continue to come back and spend money.
Take it as a lesson and find another gunsmith.
Also - get quotes or estimates up front. Saves a lot of heartache. I always ask for ballpark "how long and how much" estimates.
If both are met within a reasonable margin, I'm a happy camper and continue to come back and spend money.
chuckusaret
member
I agree. If this guy is as bad as he sounds he will be looking for work shortly. I asked a local gunsmith that has done work for me what he would charge and his reply; if I had the time it would be .1 hour labor for set up and .1 hour of labor per mag and .1 hour cleanup and inspection, or a max of .7 hours X $75= $52.50. But, he did stipulate that he presently has a 3-4 month backlog on gun repairs and not to expect them any sooner. Each and everytime he this guy has done work for me he filled out an estimate sheet that included hourly rate, man hours to complete the job and completion date. He is a professional.
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