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If "Police" break down your door and come in with guns drawn. Would you shoot them?

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by TheOtherOne, Jan 6, 2003.

  1. TheOtherOne

    TheOtherOne Senior Member

    Dec 31, 2002
    This thread, where 4 or 5 criminals dressed as police busted in a house and killed six people got me thinking:


    If people dressed as police busted down your door and started coming in with weapons and they even announced themselves as cops, would you open fire?

    I've got nothing illegal in my home and cops would have no reason to be busting down the doors, so I would automatically assume they were bad guys and start shooting.
  2. UnknownSailor

    UnknownSailor Member

    Dec 25, 2002
    Bremerton, WA
    Just because you aren't a criminal, and have nothing illegal, doesn't prevent you from being "no knock" raided. Cops aren't unknown to get the address wrong, or get bad info from a paid confidential informant.

    As for myself, it would depend on the circumstances. How far away from the front door at the time, and whether I am carrying.

    Ideally, we will wind up negotiating at gunpoint, until I am satisfied of the bonifides of the police.
  3. Carlos Cabeza

    Carlos Cabeza Senior Member

    Jan 2, 2003
    Okie City, OK.
    Its doubtful that any entry team worth it's salt would even let you know they are at the door and would take you by surprise and completely "ventilate" you. On the other hand if they are just crim's trying to pass themselves off as the real McCoy, you might have a chance. Dogs can hear stuff we can't, so they would be a plus. Even though I keep a 1911 in the pouch of my
    "Tactical Lazyboy" in condition 1, I doubt I could even get a shot off at the goodguys and would hope they don't have the wrong house............mistakenly..........:eek:
  4. SkySlash

    SkySlash New Member

    Dec 25, 2002
    Mansfield, TX
    My wife and I have discussed this on many occassions without any pleasant thoughts.

    I live in a 2nd floor apartment with no balcony and only one steel entry door, and one exposed window. I have several 2nd story windows, but you would need a ladder to access any window in my home except the front door and the window right next to it.

    We are working on a method now to block the one window that is exposed, and anytime we are home, the steel door is double locked with deadbolts.

    We are both of the mindset that anyone who comes into our home without our consent will be shot, and we are both willing to shoot first and question later. What concerns me, especially living in an apartment, is that the police may mistakenly choose my door to bust in.

    Given that both my wife and I have no criminal history, we both know that no police officer should ever legitimately decide to bust in my front door, and if they do, I hope their Kevlar saves their life, and their bullets miss their mark because we are both going to shoot at whatever comes through our door uninvited. I can only pray we're never faced with that kind of situation, otherwise the child she is carrying will probably end up parentless or killed by police murderers.

    It's a lose lose situation for all parties involved, and that is why I will always oppose no-knock raids of any kind regardless of the crime involved. Unless a life is at stake, and it is a confirmed hostage situation, I firmly believe no-knock raids are the unconstitutional result of a police state gone mad. There is ALWAYS a better place to arrest a suspect than by raiding his home while he is inside, and nothing will convince me otherwise.

    If you can muster a raid force of 8 fully decked SWAT men, you can damn sure cough up 10 uniformed B&W's to bumrush a perp in public. There are 1000 better methods than a No-knock Raid, and the answer to the original question, is yes, I would definitely shoot, probably to my own demise.

  5. telewinz

    telewinz Senior Member

    Dec 24, 2002
    Of course not! If you were a hostage and the HRT came to get you out would you stand up and wave at them or lay down on the floor and follow orders? In this country, getting into a gun fight with law enforcement is 99.999% of the time a VERY poor idea! Co-operate with them 100% and maybe you will live long enough to sue them. Otherwise its just a question of how big is the mistake going to be!:what:
  6. TheOtherOne

    TheOtherOne Senior Member

    Dec 31, 2002
    I'm with SkySlash on the "lose lose situation". If I shoot and they really are cops, I'm probably going to die. If I don't shoot and they really are criminals, I'm probably going to die.
  7. AZTOY

    AZTOY Senior Member

    Dec 24, 2002
    Fort Wainwright Alaska
    I hope to God that i will never need to make that choice.:uhoh:
  8. Baba Louie

    Baba Louie Senior Member

    Dec 26, 2002
    In my CCW class, someone asked that very question. Our instructor worked (works) with Metro's SWAT teams doing "no-knocks".

    The reply was interesting.

    "I.D. or Die" as loud as you can, over and over. If they're truly Metro cops, ID will be forthcoming. If bad guys are dressed up as Cops, they probably won't know what you're talking about and will do their thing anyway.

    How much time will you/I have to respond in an appropriate fashion?

    I've got 5 dogs who sleep in the front room. 1 Rott, 4 bird-dogs. Anyone parking out front or coming up to the door, we know about it. The neighbor's dog lives out front in a fenced yard. He ALWAYS says hello to everyone he sees and I've learned to tell his "Its a neighborhood Cat" bark from his "Its someone else who doesn't live here" bark. Call it 5 seconds from dog's barking to reach door, 3 seconds to door blown in,... and then, the moment of truth. ID or Die.

    Not very re-assuring is it?

    We have no drugs in the house, I don't tell anyone about any firearms that may or may not be in the house. Just us kids.

    Potential of bad-guy doing his thing in false uniform? It has happened here in Vegas, so I think it can and will happen again.

    Potential of real LEO "no-knock" as a result of mistaken address?

    I stand a better chance of hitting the lottery.

    These guys (LVMPD-SWAT) are good at what they do. Since I've lived here, I've never read of an "OOPS, sorry, wrong address" from them.

    When SWAT does their thing (I've seen it once) they cordon off the whole neighborhood, removing residents from neighboring homes, they're in the back yard, side yard, front street, helicopter overhead and baby, you're sealed off but good.

    They've been known to call the house in question to get someone on the line prior to the entry.

    They DO not fool around. If you've got a gun pointed at them... hope your will is up to date. ID or die or not. They've been known to outshoot Seal Team 6, if you can believe that. (I don't question their ability one iota)

    Bad guys want something you've got. Money, drugs or maybe guns (but probably the former two). They usually know what they want, where it is and who's got it.

    Don't mess with bad things or associate with bad people and chances are you'll never encounter either the police or a fake.

    Home invasion and armed robbery via following you home from bank, store, work, casino, etc. is still a possibility, of course. But that's not the question at hand.

    Of course, I could be wrong.

  9. St. Gunner

    St. Gunner Member

    Dec 31, 2002
    Devine Texas
    I live at the end of a road, way back off that road in the boonies. I to have thought of this situation and it is the reason I have taken the time and made the effort to meet the sheriff department that patrols this area. They have already been told all theyhave to do is knock and show the warrant and they are welcome. It avoids busted doors, smashed windows, and assorted other bad things. I also invite each and every one of them to come out and use my range if they would like, never been taken up on that by any of the local sheriff deputies though.

    Bad guys would have to be pretty dang good to silence all the dogs soon enough that I didn't know they where coming. Then they have to face rifle fire, because I am a firm believer in you only use a pistol to get to your rifle. But then I keep the rifle within easy reach all the time anyway.

    I'm not sure good guys could make it here un-noticed with the dogs I have roaming the place. But I figure I have covered that base with my talking to the guys, so it isn't a fear I have.

    All of you need to make an effort to meet the local LEO's, at least the guys who work your neighborhood. Only makes sense to avoid the problem if at all possible. Course some folks don't like to cause they figure they have something to hide.

    So yep you wear a raid jacket and start shooting my dogs i'll figure your intentions for less than honorable and we will have a problem. From a position of cover they will be asked to chunk down their hardware and lay with their hands on the back of their head, anyone who fails to follow instructions will have two holes to center mass. Course the cell phone will be on my side and 911 will have already been dialed so they can record the warnings I have given.

    It is one measure I have taken of late, I went to investigate a car who decided to drive in the drive one night and park while making lots of noise and people drinking. I slipped down close enough to see that it was a bunch of rough looking fellas and dialed 911, told the operator I was going to approach the car and could she leave the recorder on. Snapped the phone to my belt and walked up to the car from the rear away from the headlights. When I tapped on the trunk and asked if they needed some help 911 got four different spanish variations of ***? Then they got the sound of the car starting and four individuals taking their beer party to another road. Those 30rd rifle high caps really must be intimidating, or maybe its the big redneck in shorts, t-shirt ,and sandals shining a maglight in their eyes when it's 30 some degrees out, who knows. :D
  10. stephen_g22

    stephen_g22 New Member

    Dec 27, 2002
    Houston, Texas
    It seems like when most of these home invaders dressed as cops kill a bunch of people one or more of the victims are in the pharmacutal business, not just random people. If you do not sell dope you minimize your chances of being no-knocked by the fake cops or real cops for that matter.
  11. 4thHorseman

    4thHorseman Member

    Dec 24, 2002
    Right Here
    Whole heartly agree. Make the best decision at the the time with best info you have.
  12. G-Raptor

    G-Raptor Member

    Dec 25, 2002
    Southwest IL
    Something to think about. Can you AFFORD to assume that the person(s) kicking in your door are cops. Bad guys sometimes get the wrong address too.


    Posted on Sat, Jan. 04, 2003

    FORT WORTH - Police acknowledged Friday that an undercover officer was masked and brandishing a gun when she was shot by a store clerk who believed that he was about to be robbed.

    Officials initially disputed witness accounts about the mask, a knit ski-type mask called a balaclava, and said the officer was shot Thursday evening as she and other police went into the E-Z Food Store to arrest a man suspected of selling drugs.

    They also revised their account to say that, contrary to their original statement, the officer was not wearing a bullet-resistant vest when she was shot under the left armpit.

    The 40-year-old officer, who is not being identified because of her undercover assignment, was upgraded from critical to serious condition at John Peter Smith Hospital on Friday afternoon.

    Bao Nguyen, son of the store owner, said the masked officer never identified herself as a police officer as she entered the business at 968 Elmwood Ave. He also said he did not see any police insignia on the officer's raid jacket -- only a "dark figure" with a gun -- when he pulled his .380-caliber handgun and fired once.

    "In my mind, I knew if I didn't shoot this person, they're going to shoot me first and then my dad," Nguyen, 28, said.

    Police said they are investigating whether the officer followed proper procedure when she walked into the store wearing a mask and carrying a gun, instead of waiting for the suspect to exit.

    "I don't know why they went into the store to make an arrest," said Lt. Jesse Hernandez, a police spokesman. "If you are going to go make an arrest of someone who just sold drugs, you might want to draw your gun.

    "This is still early; we are still looking at everything. I don't have answers to all your questions yet."

    Police Chief Ralph Mendoza did not return calls to his pager late Friday afternoon. Hernandez said neither he nor the chief would comment on department policies until an internal review is complete.

    City Manager Gary Jackson said Mendoza had told him that circumstances surrounding the use of the mask and entering a business to make an arrest would be evaluated. He also said departmental policy does not require officers to wear bulletproof vests.

    "It is a routine matter in serious incidents like this to do an incident evaluation," he said.

    Hernandez said he provided inaccurate information about the mask and bulletproof vest Thursday night because of the chaos that occurred immediately after the shooting.

    "I gave you the best information I had at the time," he said. "Some of it came from officers who got there after the fact. They weren't real sure."

    Hernandez said undercover officers typically wear pull-on masks "to conceal their identity because they may be a 'buy' officer one day and they don't want to be recognized."

    He said no decision has been made on possible charges against Nguyen, who was questioned and released Thursday night.

    "We'll collect the facts and, if warranted, he may face a grand jury referral," Hernandez said. "It may very well turn out to be a tragic accident."

    On Friday morning, the store's owner and his wife reopened the business.

    They were joined later in the afternoon by Bao Nguyen, who said he felt sick after the shooting and had difficulty sleeping.

    He arrived, visibly shaken, to a swarm of reporters seeking his account of events.

    Nguyen and his father, who asked not to be identified, said they did not own a gun when they bought the store in May 2000. They said they later purchased two, one for each to carry while working, on the advice of Fort Worth police.

    "We have a good relationship with police," the owner said, adding that officers typically frequent his store, giving advice and keeping an eye on the business.

    Nguyen said he had no clue that he had shot an officer until his father called 911 and dispatchers indicated that police were already there.

    "In my mind, I'm thinking, 'How can this be?' " Nguyen said. "I heard from outside a voice saying, 'Officer down.' That's when I realized it."

    Soon after, officers stormed into the store.

    "They were yelling and cussing," the owner said. "I just put my hands up. I tell my son, 'You put your hands up and do whatever they say.' "

    Nguyen said he quickly acknowledged responsibility for the shooting.

    "They asked, 'Anybody else in the building?' I said no. They asked, 'Who fired the shot?' I raised my hands up and said, 'I did.' "

    Nguyen, his father and the customer whom police were attempting to arrest when the shooting occurred, were ordered on the floor and were handcuffed.

    James Crenshaw, 27, admitted selling a $20 rock of crack cocaine to the undercover officers and was booked into Mansfield Jail, where he remained Friday, police said. Police said he faces a charge of delivery of a controlled substance less than one gram, a state jail felony.

    The father and son were taken to police headquarters for questioning until almost midnight, when they were driven back to the store and released.

    Nguyen and his father said they believe that the shooting could have been avoided if the officer had identified herself.

    "It happened too fast," Nguyen said. "I just concentrated on the mask and the gun [she was] holding."

    Sam Walker, a professor of criminal justice at the University of Nebraska at Omaha who specializes in police accountability, said the shooting might have been avoided if officers had waited for the suspect to leave the store or used a uniformed officer to make the arrest.

    "I think they are creating a very high-risk situation, entering a commercial establishment with a gun and a mask and a hood," Walker said.

    "I think the average person would not assume someone with a hood on is a police officer. ... I haven't actually heard of many cases like this. I think it would certainly be an occasion for this department and others to clarify their policies."

    Hernandez said a review is under way.

    "Anytime something like this happens, obviously, we will go back and review our policies, our procedures, our practices, and see if there is something we need to do differently and make those adjustments as we need to," Hernandez said. "If we make mistakes, then we will correct those."

    The wounded officer, a single mother of a young daughter, has been with the department since 1995. Sources said the woman has worked in narcotics enforcement for much of her career, including work at another police agency and as a member of drug task forces before coming to Fort Worth.

    "That's her main interest," one officer said. "That's all she ever really tried to work. That's where she has put her efforts. She definitely is experienced beyond her tenure with our department in narcotics."

    Nguyen said he feels remorse over the shooting and would like to one day meet the officer and apologize to her and her family.

    "To the one I shot, I'm really sorry," Nguyen said. "I pray for her."
  13. Gila Jorge

    Gila Jorge Member

    Dec 26, 2002
    El Paso, Texas
    Then there is the story from San Antonio of cops barging into and shooting up the wrong house.
    I guess I would give it all I had....probably die in the process but not without taking some Jack Booted criminals with me.
  14. spacemanspiff

    spacemanspiff Senior Member

    Dec 24, 2002
    IIRC, the recent account up here in alaska (dec 31) of the two who posed as DEA knocked on the door.
    i think both suspects are still at large. not gonna open my door to anyone.

    not like i have to worry about that anyways, i dont have any friends to begin with. :D
  15. Jason Demond

    Jason Demond Member

    Dec 24, 2002
    Mivonks, MI
    Anyone smashing my door in is a bad guy, peroid! I will act accordingly, and people will die. I don't want to kill anyone, but it it ever comes down to it, I will. This was a hard moral decision for me to come to, but I have made my peace and will do whatever I have to do to protect my family and self.
  16. TallPine

    TallPine Senior Member

    Dec 26, 2002
    somewhere in the middle of Montana
    No "poop" !!!

    (I would have used a different word, but ...)
  17. Rebel Gunman HK

    Rebel Gunman HK member

    Jan 3, 2003
    Las Cruces, NM
    I do nothing to warrant my door being kicked in by anybody. So, if it is kicked in Im giving them a lead salad. Cops need to start being more carefull about their actions.
  18. HS/LD

    HS/LD Member

    Dec 24, 2002
    My house.

    No-knock of any kind is answered with lead.:mad:

    I have LEOs in my family and I just pray they check check and double check their addresses.:(

  19. Sindawe

    Sindawe Senior Member

    Dec 26, 2002
    Outside The People's Republic of Boulder, CO
    Without hesitation

    ANYBODY breaking down my door is up to no good, and will be repelled with leathal force if needed. Like others here, I have nothing in my home that would warrant such actions, even under the color of the law these days. If the legal systems thinks I do, get a freaking warrant naming the place to be searched and the items or persons to be siezed, knock politely, serve warrant and we'll hash the details out in court. Thats the way the game is SUPPOSED to be played in our society.

    Use a battering ram to open the door, swarm in yelling and screaming and several cops will not be going home that day.
  20. Zundfolge

    Zundfolge Senior Member

    Dec 24, 2002
    Colorado Springs
    Anyone breaking down my door will be fired upon unless I see several police vehicles in my yard (although I'll probably yell out a few of Baba Louie's "ID or Die" calls first).

    However I believe these things can be avoided by 2 things;

    Follow St. Gunner's advice and get to know the LEOs in your area ... especially the cops on your beat (maybe even sign up for a ride along). The better they know you, the less likely they will be to serve a no-knock on you, by accident or on purpose.

    But the most important thing we can do is push our local police and politicritters to DE-MILITARIZE THE POLICE!

    There is no reason our local constabulary need to be serving no-knock warrants on anyone (except maybe in a hostage situation)
    There is no reason they should be carrying MP5s ... shotguns and handguns should be fine for them.
    There is no reason for balaclavas and black "spec-ops spook ninja" wear, simple blue, black, beige or grey police officer uniforms with spit-shined shoes and "barney fife" style hats are all they need.

    We need to make it clear to our local governments that we will not accept an "occupying army" in place of our "Protect and serve" police officers.

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