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(IN) Police want firearms with more power

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by Drizzt, Dec 25, 2002.

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  1. Drizzt

    Drizzt Well-Known Member

    Police want firearms with more power

    Incident involving suspect with assault rifle renews concerns about guns IPD uses.

    By Tom Spalding


    December 24, 2002

    Marion County prosecutors plan to file attempted-murder charges today against a suspect accused of firing dozens of shots at three Indianapolis police officers.

    Meanwhile, the Saturday night incident, which left two young officers with minor injuries, is prompting another internal IPD review of officer firepower.

    Officers carried .40-caliber handguns -- while accused gunman Anthony Keith Brown, 25, carried a much more lethal SKS assault rifle.

    "We were severely out-firepowered, I guess," said East District Patrolman Andy Lamle, one of the three officers under fire that night. "His weapon was far superior to anything we had available to us."

    None of the officers can say for certain that a high-powered weapon of their own would have made a difference during the incident on the Eastside.

    But police are considering that option.

    "The times it would be useful would be very slim," said Indianapolis Police Department spokesman Steve Staletovich. "But even if it's one time, it could make the difference between life and death. It's worth a look, and it's getting a look."

    The leader of the police union said his organization has raised the issue before.

    "We have tried asking the department on previous occasions to boost our firepower, and we are still exploring the possibility," said IPD Sgt. Vince Huber, president of Fraternal Order of Police Lodge No. 86. "It shows the need to do that for the safety of our officers and citizens. Something that's equal to the firepower we're seeing from criminals."

    According to police, officers tried to stop the Buick that Brown was driving after they spotted it speeding from Circle City Pizza, 2904 E. 38th St., at 7:03 p.m. Saturday. Officers had been called to a disturbance at the shop, where Brown worked last year.

    The chase headed south and east, and police think shots might have been fired at officers during the pursuit. Brown stopped at 32nd Street and Sherman Drive because the Buick's transmission gave out.

    Second-year Officer Linda Jackson, 35, was about half a block from Brown and was getting out of her car and looking for cover when she was struck in the hip by the gunfire. Jackson was treated for the wound and released from Wishard Memorial Hospital late Saturday.

    Lamle, 24, skinned his knees as he dived behind his car for protection.

    Patrolman Frank Miller II, 25, was grazed by either shrapnel or a bullet that scraped his thigh.

    All three officers have been on patrol for two years, work the East District and are friends as part of IPD's 95th recruit class.

    Two of the officers -- Lamle and Miller -- had an emotional story to tell Monday afternoon about hunkering for cover as the suspect fired.

    "His first initial burst was probably anywhere from 25 to 30 rounds," said Miller, who had taken cover inside a wheel well. "A million things go through your mind in a second. And you know, I thought of my wife, I thought of my new 3-month-old baby, and I told myself, 'I'm not gonna die behind this car.' "

    After an exchange of gunfire, Miller said, he kept yelling, "Throw the gun out!" and "Give yourself up!" until Brown finally complied.

    Police say Brown was firing a rifle that used 7.62 mm bullets, slightly smaller in diameter than the police pistol bullets but traveling much faster and farther. A rifle with similar power was used to kill Marion County Sheriff's Deputy Jason Baker in September 2001.

    Brown is being held without bond in Marion County Jail on preliminary charges of attempted murder, carrying a firearm without a license and resisting law enforcement. A news conference to discuss the charges is planned for 10 a.m. today with incoming Marion County Prosecutor Carl Brizzi.

    Miller credited the training officers receive in how to protect themselves from such a dangerous weapon for keeping them alive.

    "It shows the quality of training we get at this police department," he said. "I mean, look at the statistics of officers that have encountered high-powered rifles. We're lucky to be alive."

  2. Tamara

    Tamara Senior Member

    So, yeah, put a carbine or shotgun in the trunk of the squad cars.

    Makes sense to me.

    Wonder, though, what is the maximum range IPD officers ever have to shoot for quals...
  3. Blackhawk

    Blackhawk Member In Memoriam

    Is this a proposed script for Saturday Night Live or something? There are elements of it that are almost comical.

    How many people really need training to take cover when under fire?

    The police won't be any more comfortable lugging M2s around than the citizens will be with them firing them.

    Don't all SWAT teams have UAVs to handle situations like this?

    And on, and on, and on....
  4. 4v50 Gary

    4v50 Gary Moderator Staff Member

    It's about time. Long guns are used in increasing numbers by criminals. The death of the two NH officers, the LAPD bank robbery shootout, the slaying of an officer in SF and now this. It's about time LE is given better weapons.
  5. Rick R

    Rick R Well-Known Member

    I always get a chill when I see a news story like this. I've been a cop for twenty years and we're usually not "out gunned" just out tactic-ed. We do need a weapon that allows us to extend control beyond the realm of the handgun or through armor and some cover, but most of these stories make it sound liker we're shopping for ICBM's or artillery. What we need is a moderate powered carbine that everyone can hit well with and which is up to the abuse of riding around in a cruiser for years.

    Our SRT members thought I'd flipped when I had them shooting MP-5's at 100 yards this summer. ;)

    Last edited: Dec 25, 2002
  6. El Tejon

    El Tejon Well-Known Member

    Tamara, to answer your question 50 yards when I was there. Not there since summer of `90 (Office of Planning and Research). Don't know what they do at Plainfield (where police academy is and where Mike Tyson was). But, remember, you will never use your pistol at any range greater than 2.73 yards, so there is no need to train for this and . . . . hey, wait a minute!

    "Carrying a firearm without a license"? What's that? Must have had a pistol on him as well.

    IPD is where I got the incident about the motorcycle cop, the M66 and the mustard.:D
  7. 2nd Amendment

    2nd Amendment member

    I'm still trying to get past the idea of an SKS as High Powered Rifle and "outgunning" anyone with one. I'm sorry, they are neat little rifles but jeez. An officer competent with a .40 would be more than sufficient to make me run away, SKS or no SKS.
  8. El Tejon

    El Tejon Well-Known Member

    2nd, apparently you've never seen IPD fight!:D You must live somewhere where the cops are a lot tougher.

    "High power rifle" when talking about a CKC or such always makes me snicker too. However, it's technically correct.
  9. Redlg155

    Redlg155 Well-Known Member

    Ok. The BG is half a block away. The Officers ditch and car and hit the deck. BG runs out of ammo and from a half a block away they order him to the ground and he complies instead of running away? Unless Officer Miller in a second car was much closer, within speaking distance. If so then Officer Miller was close enough to use a much more efficent weapon, a 12 GA shotgun.

    Maybe I'm missing something here but the story sounds a bit nutty. Especially the estimated initial burst round count from an SKS. First initial burst? hmmm...didn't know they made full auto SKSs.

    Anyway..I'm glad the Officers got out of the situation alive. Keeping a carbine in the vehicle would also probably be a good idea.

    Good Shooting
  10. pax

    pax Well-Known Member

    Blackhawk, a surprising number of them. A lot of people simply freeze up when something unexpected happens.

    The article itself is a little shocking, don't you all think? I mean, a shooting incident and they are calling for better weapons for the police -- instead of for more gun control.

    How unusual.


    After a shooting spree, they always want to take the guns away from the people who didn't do it. -- William Burroughs
  11. dinosaur

    dinosaur Well-Known Member

    El Tejon?? :confused: :confused: :confused: :D
  12. 2nd Amendment

    2nd Amendment member

    It's Indiana. We haven't all gone insane here, yet. Well, so long as you don't include Columbus, Bloomington and Gary. And no, I've never seen the IPD fight. Here in Greene Co the cops will just ignore you...till they decide to kick your arse. :)
  13. Blackhawk

    Blackhawk Member In Memoriam

    Yes, and that's a good point! I'm so intent on finding BIG improvements in the media, that I don't tend to notice small ones! :D

    BTW, Ruger Mini14s would be good cruiser carbines, IMO.

    Edited to add:

    (OT, but I just noticed that my status changed to "Senior Member" with this post! How about them apples? I'm THR's first Senior Member!)
    Last edited: Dec 25, 2002
  14. Iggy

    Iggy Well-Known Member


    That Indiana bad guy wouldn't want to tie into a Highway Patrolman out here...

    They are all issued a 12 guage and an M-14... maybe its those wide open spaces... :D
  15. El Tejon

    El Tejon Well-Known Member

    Iggy, nope, he wouldn't.:) Would love to see a pair of Wyoming state cops on, oh, say 24th and New Jersey at about 1:00 am on a Saturday night.

    This illustrates that not only is there no reason to train in long range pistol shooting, there's no reason to train in switch-to-slug drills with shotguns.:rolleyes:
  16. cordex

    cordex Well-Known Member

    The local TV interview with the perp was very ... interesting. He is the archtypical "gangbanger".
    Apparently, he claims that his son (one of them, anyway) is his "twin", and will avenge his incarceration. He also said that while he doesn't remember the whole event, if they claim that he shot at them, he probably did.

    Reports claimed that he had 130+ rounds of ammo left in his car.
  17. Zorro

    Zorro Well-Known Member


    Give every patrol car a SKS for about $150, or a Marlin 30-30 for about $250.
  18. dinosaur

    dinosaur Well-Known Member

    Re: Yehaww

    Yeah, I heard that about 25 years ago when I was in Nebraska. It was M16s back then IIRC. I`d rather have the 14.:cool:
  19. tlhelmer

    tlhelmer Well-Known Member

    I work for the Indiana State Police and we tried to get the admin to allow us to carry personally owned rifles after a qual. course. They just ignored our request and didnt even say no.

    We have had a number of incidents where our officers were either pinned down or being fired upon with high powered rifles and all we had was our sidearm and a shotgun.

    Maybe the next Superintendent will change the policy, but admin. are always more worried about liability from others that the danger to their officers.
  20. Iggy

    Iggy Well-Known Member


    30 years ago the WHP issued a model 10 S&W but we could carry anything we qualified with.. I carried a 45.

    I also had a AR-180 under the headrests and a sawed-off, nickle plated, gold hammered, double barreled 12 guage clipped to the door..

    THat sawed off got the BG's attention in a real hurry.. Kinda like lookin' down the mouth of the Holland Tunnels..When those hammers clicked, their eyeballs clicked, and you had their undivided from them on...

    They finally issued 870's about the time I quit. Then recently they issued the M-14's to everyone..

    Times have changed.... *G*
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