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Is a 4 moa red dot sight too big of a dot?

Discussion in 'Shooting Gear and Storage' started by Lone_Gunman, Jul 6, 2007.

  1. Lone_Gunman

    Lone_Gunman Senior Member

    Dec 24, 2002
    United Socialist States of Obama
    Has anyone ever used a red dot sight with a 4 moa dot? Is it too big? Are you able to shoot more precisely with a smaller dot?

    If you put a 4moa red dot on a rifle able to shoot 2 moa, wouldnt this negate some of the accuracy of the rifle?
  2. rangerruck

    rangerruck Senior Member

    Jan 12, 2006
    Texas, baby!
    red dots, are really made for animal or larger sized targets, a red dot, most likely, will not give you moa accuracy out to 50 yards, maybe not even at 25, unless you are really good and practiced with it.
  3. chris in va

    chris in va Senior Member

    Mar 4, 2005
    Louisville KY
    I don't think you use a red dot for target work. Mine is used mainly for plinking, and hunting if I were to ever do so.

    BADUNAME13 Senior Member

    Nov 12, 2006
    Gulf Coast
    I have shot an M4 out to 400 meters (Unknown distance targets) using a red dot with a 4 mil dot.

    The size of the dot made it very hard to hit the pepper poppers at the further distances, if it were not for the # of rounds I had put through it previously, I do not know if I would of been able to.

    I go with 2 mil dot optics ever since.
    (I am a Marine Corps Expert Rifleman)
  5. cracked butt

    cracked butt Senior Member

    Jan 3, 2003
    SE Wisconsin
    Just sight it in so that the target sits on top of the dot. The dot is then used like just like a front sight when using iron sights. By my guestimation, most service rifle front sights are 5-6MOA wide but this isn't an accuracy hindrance.
  6. Don't Tread On Me

    Don't Tread On Me Senior Member

    Jul 19, 2004
    Reddots are for speed on medium sized targets and up. However, that doesn't mean you can't be very accurate with one.

    Here's an example. My lightweight Colt AR-15 has a 4moa Aimpoint on it. I was shooting at 50 yards using 75gr TAP (pretty accurate stuff). I tried to go for a couple of good groups. No bags, just elbows on bench. This rifle has a forward pistolgrip. I stuck a 3" Shoot'n'See on the target. At 50 yards, the dot is 2moa. I bracketed the dot inside the Shoot'n'See so that there was a 1" even ring all the way around the reddot. Didn't plan it, just worked out that way. Anyway, shot two groups of 5 rds each. Each had the holes touching. No more than 1" in size. Was closer to 0.75" ...I figure I'm good for 2moa with this dot.

    I bring this up because dot size doesn't make for inaccuracy. How you place a reticle or sight on a target is what counts. It's more about point of reference than it is about the size of the dot. Now, had I used a tiny 1" dot as a point of aim, then there is a potential for 1" of error on either side since the reddot is 2" ...I could be covering the 1" target dot, but on the maximum left or max right of the 2" reddot, not in the center.

    A lot of people shoot irons very well because they know what to look for or look at. It is a similar principle. Do you ever wonder why some guys can take what looks like very coarse sights and hit so well at distance?

    Hard to describe I guess. Same thing if let's say the cross hair wasn't thin, it was as thick as the upper duplex part. If you have a target that allows you to get a point of reference, you can put those thick crosshairs on target the same way over and over, no matter how thick they are.

    With a 4moa dot, your point of impact will be somewhere inside that dot. This can be a problem at greater range. Say you want to hit a 3" circle at 200 yards. (I can't even see a 3" circle that far, and I've got slightly better than 20/20) ...but let's say you can. The dot is going to cover about 8" ...

    In that respect, is isn't useful. Then again - with no magnification, shooting tiny spots like that is tedious if not impossible for most people. What is a reddot better for? Shooting metal plates. Human sized targets out to 300... etc. Things where you're going for an area hit, rather than a pin-point hit. And where you need to do it quickly without the hassle of having to line up irons. In practical use, you are not going to have a perfect paper target calibrated for the dot size at a given distance so you can make the most of your shot. Also, a dot isn't used for a long range precision. There are better tools. Practical use isn't going to be like my above bench story where I took my sweet old time sitting on a comfy bench to squeeze off a small group.

    A lot of people like 2moa dots. I find them too small. 4moa (if you know what you're doing) is a small dot, and is quite capable of doing a lot. More so than what most shooters are capable of. It doesn't sacrifice quick pick-up like the 2moa. It is easier to pick up in a hurry yet offers all the practical accuracy you need. If you need more - then you need magnification. That's just my opinion. A 2moa dot isn't going to make a hit where you would have had a miss. I just don't see it in practical use. At least not for what reddots were intended.
  7. CD0311

    CD0311 New Member

    Jun 20, 2007
    Arizona, Iraq
    Nomad you mean 2moa dot don't you? 2mil dot would be about a 7.2 inch dot at 100, way to big.

    1mil = 3.438moa = 3.6inch and 100yards if I remember right :p
  8. DMK

    DMK Senior Member

    Dec 24, 2002
    Over the hills and far, far away
    Bingo! A lot of folks don't get that and obscure the target with the dot.
  9. bgrayd

    bgrayd New Member

    Mar 19, 2007
    Just a thought, but...

    Here's the way I see it...

    If you want dead-on accuracy, a scope is the way to go.

    The red-dot scopes are meant to be for fast target acquisition/moving targets (think close-quarters-combat). The good ones are made for both eyes open shooting (better field of view).

    choosing between the 2 and the 4? If you decide on a red-dot (over a scope), then I suggest trying both out, and deciding which you prefer.

    Both definitely have their place.

  10. Alphazulu6

    Alphazulu6 member

    Jun 2, 2007
    Yeah Red Dots are not really for precision but for defense/combat type operations. I love them and use them but for 50 yards I have to agree with the scope :D
  11. jsebens

    jsebens New Member

    Mar 9, 2006
    Personally, I prefer the EOTech reticle. I find the smaller red dot (as compared to the Aimpoint) lends itself better to distance accuracy without obliterating my view of the target, and the circle around the red dot eliminates any of that "Where's my dot?!!" issue when you snap your rifle up for a quick shot. As I'm sure you can guess, your mileage may vary.
  12. DeltaGunner

    DeltaGunner member

    Dec 10, 2006
    West Tn
    I have an aimpoint with 4 moa. I've got a canopener that cuts around the edge of the can end. I save these and drill a hole in them and pin them to my 100 yd target boards. When the can end dissapearsbehind the dot I shoot. I have after some practice got to the point of a 20 round hit out of 20 and alittle worse if I change can ends target to target in a semi quick fashion. I find it fun. If the target were to change to center body mass there would be some serious injuries to the can men......
    Play with it, you find it fun and a way you can get good with it.
  13. Shipwreck

    Shipwreck Senior Member

    Mar 6, 2005
    Ditto on the eotech. I like that 1 MOA dot in the center!
  14. Owen

    Owen Moderator Emeritus

    Dec 24, 2002
    Georgetown, TX
    They work very well for bullseye pistol. I'd like larger, but with my astigmatism the larger dots flare too much.
  15. LiquidTension

    LiquidTension Senior Member

    Jan 28, 2003
    I also like the reticle on the EOTech. 1 MOA dot with a 65MOA circle around it. That big ring lets your eye go right to the small dot in the center. I have a Millet Multidot (I think that's the name of it) that has a 4MOA setting. When it was mounted on my FAL I had 3 rounds touching at 75yds - as long as you sight it so that the target is at the top edge of the dot, there's no reason why you can't get accuracy that's better than the MOA of the dot.
  16. Omnivore

    Omnivore Member

    May 30, 2006
    North Idaho/Eastern Washington
    Your Front Iron Sight is Bigger Still

    Your rifle's front iron sight is far wider than 4 MOA, even if you have "Match" iron sights. Still you can shoot nice small groups with it if you have experience with your rifle.

    Give me an old shoe as a reticle and I'm sure that with practice I could make something of it.

    The Trijicon Reflex and Tripower sights come with triangle or chevron reticles. They have that infinitesimal point at the top that some people will find easier to deal with. EOTech has the reticle to beat, IMO. An EOTech sit higher on the weapon, so there may be a trade-off there unless you're using it on an AR flat top, where you need the height anyway.

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