Just say NO to Steyr

[Biker]

I think that I will speak for american gun owners and steyr when I say the far greater crime is that WE cannot buy Steyr's products, thanks to our own government and its import bans. Boycott the US government if you boycott anyone.

Ditto that.
Biker

 

[Justin]

Boycott the US government if you boycott anyone.

Um, the IRS tends to kinda frown on that...

 

[telomerase]

What kind of a government do we have that would rather have these weapons accessible to terrorists than trust them in the hands of its own law abiding citizenry?

The kind that donated two nuclear reactors to North Korea? The kind that gave billions to Pol Pot, Idi Amin, Nyerere, Mao, et al? The kind that shipped chemical weapon precursors to Saddam Hussein? The kind that...

 

[Hawk]

Do you have a source to confirm this? Cause if it is true, it is extremely disturbing.

The original Newsday link has gone dead from this thread.

The excerpted quote in the thread needs some context:

He said that U.S. Embassy personnel asked him to stop such sales not only to Iran but to potential customers in other Middle East countries -- something he said he was prepared to consider only if Washington in return lifts restrictions that prevent his company from selling certain high-tech weapons in the United States.

 

[biere]

http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=422628

That is one post over there and it seems to have some of the articles about it.

There are other posts in general discussion about steyr as well.

Overall it looks to me that since the ban was on against magazines and "assault" weapons the government was willing to let steyr sell other places since CITIZENS were not ALLOWED to own such terrible and awful misbehaving firearms.

 

[racenutz]

Other than the AUG (everything else is a bolt action or a pistol) which firearms were Steyr not permitted to sell?

 

[CAnnoneer]

Let's put the blame where it belongs - Iran. They are the ones supporting parts of the "insurgents". Steyr are just a business selling a commodity.

That being said, I doubt I'd ever buy Steyr products anyway - they hold no appeal for me.

 

[Cellar Dweller]

Short memories?

Gee, wasn't there a massive push for a bill to prevent manufacturers from being held liable if a criminal used a firearm whilst committing a crime? "Guns don't kill people, people kill people" and all that? A great victory when it was signed into law?

By this logic we should boycott all U.S. firearms manufacturers, because somewhere around the world, exported American weapons are killin' somebody, sold with (and financed by) the U.S. government's blessing.

Unless terrorists are not actually criminals, then it makes perfect sense.

 

[Thin Black Line]

Source:

Yesterday's edition of the Telegraph out of London:

http://news.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006/01/14/wiran214.xml

This is not "old news." It's one thing to go window-shopping, but it seems
the merchandise has been delivered.

 

[Hawk]

Thin Black Line:

The way I'm reading it, Steyr wanted to sell the stuff in the U.S. we said "no" and banned importation.

What, exactly, do we expect Steyr to do?

Assuming, of course, we don't really believe that we and our interests are the exact center of the universe? These people are arms manufacturers. We didn't allow them to sell here. Yet we presume to tell them where they can?

Still, I respect your views on how to go about dealing with the issues. For myself, I believe I'll hold the U.S. authoritities behind the import ban responsible.

I owe more to Barrett than S-M, so I can't see ponying up for a .50 other than one Ronnie makes at present. However, I really wouldn't mind a reasonably priced AUG or USR.

The absolute best way to see to it that our troops aren't targeted by these things is to buy up the available supply. The American people are standing by, ready to take care of this matter.

Just, please, get our government out of the way.

 

[Zundfolge]

The absolute best way to see to it that our troops aren't targeted by these things is to buy up the available supply. The American people are standing by, ready to take care of this matter.

Just, please, get our government out of the way.

A-freakin'-men!

 

[tellner]

We sold them F-4s, F-14s and ships, but when the Shah was there in the '70's. Not a thing since Carter sent Komeni back to Iran from Paris. That "Man of Peace" killed thousands, and they are backing the "insergents" in Iraq.

Twaddle. Remember Iran-Contra. Reagan's handlers (I doubt the old man was actually ever in charge in any meaningful way) sold Hawk missles and other trifles to the Mullahs in order to (illegally) send them to the Somocistas.

 

[horge]

Originally posted by Cellar dweller
Short memories?

Gee, wasn't there a massive push for a bill to prevent manufacturers from being held liable if a criminal used a firearm whilst committing a crime? "Guns don't kill people, people kill people" and all that? A great victory when it was signed into law?

By this logic we should boycott all U.S. firearms manufacturers, because somewhere around the world, exported American weapons are killin' somebody, sold with (and financed by) the U.S. government's blessing.

False analogy, methinks.
After all, If a U.S. company were to sell firearms to known felons,
that company would be liable, no?

Steyr isn't being blasted for selling .50 cal. rifles,
but specifically for selling them to Iran.

Whether the Osterreichers were within their rights to make the sale isn't
in question, nor is the freedom of U.S. consumers to thumb them in the eye
right back. However, you imply that any retaliation vs. Steyr is hypocritical,
as if Iran failed the mandatory 'background check' only after the sale.

This comes as an extremely late response, but I only found this thread just now,
and could not restrain comment.


horge

 

[atblis]

Sigh

they hold no appeal for me.

I guess you guys have never shot any of their rifles. Oh well, your loss I suppose. Keep buying Remington 700s and Savages.

 

[bowfin]

/*We sold them F-4s, F-14s and ships, but when the Shah was there in the '70's.*/

There was a recent article about Iranians using third parties a to buy surplus F-14 parts from the Department of Defense. Since the United States and Iran were the only two countries to fly the F-14 Tomcat, it raised suspicions when the buyers tried to export the parts.

The (not so) funny part is that after parts were confiscated and returned to the Department of Defense, they were found, once again, on their way to Iran, and they still had their custom evidence tags on them from the first time they were seized.:banghead:

Here's a read on it:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16648850/

 

[Lonestar]

Before you say so what to the whole deal, read this part again;

HS50 Steyr-Mannlicher .50 calibre rifles can pierce body armour from up to a mile, shoot down helicopters and penetrate Humvee troop carriers that have not been fully reinforced.

Then realize that suddenly, within the past few week, how may US and British helicopters been shot down due to ground fire compared to the rest of the "insurgency war"?? The US military recently changed tactics, because of more "Accurate" insurgent ground fire. How many soldiers died thanks to this sale??

I will be banning Steyr

 

[Thin Black Line]

Still, I respect your views on how to go about dealing with the issues. For myself, I believe I'll hold the U.S. authoritities behind the import ban responsible.

And who is to say they wouldn't have sold both here and there? I'm not against
US civilians buying these rifles --which will come as a relief to some of the
handwringers here about a perceived personal restriction on them.

This is a big picture thing. Gov's are going to be the primary buyers of this
weapon and from what I can tell this was a direct sale. Not a case of "We
sold these to Country X and then X sold to Country Y. What could we
do about it since we were out of the loop by then?"

Again, the analogy here for some of the individuals to comprehend this a
little easier would be your local FFL selling the same weapon to Mr Felon
knowing that Mr. Felon will be far more likely to take shots at the police
officers than John Q Citizen. You people who still have no problem with
this scenario are good Consumers, but I would seriously question your sense
of good Citizenship.

 

[crucible]

I think that I will speak for american gun owners and steyr when I say the far greater crime is that WE cannot buy Steyr's products, thanks to our own government and its import bans. Boycott the US government if you boycott anyone.

Bitching about US import issues aside, I am an American gun owner, and you don't speak for me.

Specifically because of this and the fact that Steyr isn't exactly a unsuspecting victim here IMO, I will not consider purchasing any Steyr product over and above my personal perception of thier aesthetic qualities.

I will continue to exercise my freedom as a consumer with this view as long as Steyr continues to do business with Iran in this manner (or as long as I choose to do so), regardless of whether or not it means a hill of beans to Steyr, you, the ice cream man, or anyone else.

Isn't consumer freedom grand?

C-

 

[crazed_ss]

Then realize that suddenly, within the past few week, how may US and British helicopters been shot down due to ground fire compared to the rest of the "insurgency war"?? The US military recently changed tactics, because of more "Accurate" insurgent ground fire. How many soldiers died thanks to this sale??

I will be banning Steyr

You think Insurgents are shooting down helicopters with 50 cal rifles?

 

[coltrane679]

You think Insurgents are shooting down helicopters with 50 cal rifles?

The guy doesn't even realize he is making the exact same argument that .50-banners in the US are making. It is no more plausible coming from him.

People live in a dreamland about the international arms market, I guess.

Please send me all the evil Steyrs you folks don't want.

 

[Lonestar]

You think Insurgents are shooting down helicopters with 50 cal rifles?

The guy doesn't even realize he is making the exact same argument that .50-banners in the US are making. It is no more plausible coming from him.

People live in a dreamland about the international arms market, I guess.

Please send me all the evil Steyrs you folks don't want.

What part of 3 US and 1 British Helicopters shot down by ground fire in 2 weeks, don't you understand. What you guys think you CAN'T shoot down a low flying, slow moving aircraft with small arms ground fire. If a well placed .50 armor piercing round can disable a car or trunk engine, I guess it can't penetrate into helicopter, they must have MAGIC armor.

Wow for a firearms forum no one has any respect for what can be done with a bullet. watch a learn boys;

http://youtube.com/watch?v=hDOBtgdScPA&mode=related&search=

 

[K-Romulus]

latest news: "Austrian sniper rifles sold to Iran found in Iraq: report"

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20070213/wl_afp/iraqiranaustriaweaponstradeusbritain_070213030722

Austrian sniper rifles sold to Iran found in Iraq: report

Mon Feb 12, 10:07 PM ET

LONDON (AFP) - US troops have found more than a hundred Austrian-made sniper rifles, which were sold to
Iran, in a Baghdad raid on insurgents, The Daily Telegraph has reported citing unnamed defence sources.

The .50 calibre weapons, which are capable of penetrating body armour, were part of a shipment of 800 rifles exported by Austrian arms manufacturer Steyr-Mannlicher to Iran last year, the newspaper said.

"Although we did make our worries known the sale unfortunately went ahead, and now the potential that these weapons could fall into the wrong hands appears to have happened," a spokesman for the British foreign ministry was quoted as saying by the Telegraph.

Britain and the United States had condemned the sale when it originally happened because of their fears that the weapons, which the National Iranian Police Organisation said it was buying to use against drug smugglers, would find their way to insurgents in
Iraq.

The report comes days after top US defense officials said that sophisticated Iranian-built bombs smuggled into Iraq have killed at least 170 US and allied soldiers since June 2004 and wounded 620 more.

According to The Daily Telegraph, within 45 days of the HS50 Steyr-Mannlicher rifles arriving in Iran, a US soldier in an armoured vehicle was killed by an Iraqi insurgent using one of the weapons.

US troops had found in the past six months small numbers of the rifles, which each cost 10,000 pounds (15,000 euros, 19,500 dollars), but a raid in Baghdad over the last 24 hours has increased that total to more than a hundred.

 

[Lonestar]

BAGHDAD, Feb. 7 — With two more helicopter crashes near Baghdad, including a Marine transport crash on Wednesday that killed seven people, the number of helicopters that have gone down in Iraq over the past three weeks rose to six. American officials say the streak strongly suggests that insurgents have adapted their tactics and are now putting more effort into shooting down the aircraft.

The number also includes a previously unreported downing of a helicopter operated by a private security firm on Jan. 31.

Some aspects of the recent crashes indicate that insurgents have become smarter about anticipating American flight patterns and finding ways to use old weapons to down helicopters, according to military and witness reports. The aircraft, many of which are equipped with sophisticated antimissile technology, still can be vulnerable to more conventional weapons fired from the ground.

Details about the Marine helicopter, a CH-46 Sea Knight transport that crashed into an open field in an insurgent-heavy region northwest of Baghdad, were still sketchy Wednesday night. Witnesses said the aircraft appeared to have been shot down, but some military officials suggested that the crash might have been caused by a mechanical failure.

The private security helicopter shot down last week was being flown in support of State Department operations and was forced down 10 miles south of the capital after insurgents attacked it with heavy-caliber ground fire as it flew from Hilla to Baghdad, American officials said Wednesday. Another American helicopter quickly swooped in to rescue the passengers and crew.
There have been four other fatal downings of American helicopters since mid-January that killed at least 20 people and that military officials have suggested were all caused by small-arms fire. In some cases, however, witnesses indicated that missiles had been fired from the ground.

American officials emphasize that a new sense of coordinated aggressiveness on the part of insurgents toward attacking aircraft, or even luck, may be playing as large a role in the high pace of crashes as improved skill and tactics among insurgents.

“I do not know whether or not it is the law of averages that caught up with us,” said Marine Gen. Peter Pace, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, during Senate testimony on Tuesday. Another possibility, he said, was that there had “been a change in tactics, techniques and procedures on the part of the enemy.”

Among the troops, helicopters are still seen as a less vulnerable way to travel than the ground convoys that are commonly subject to roadside bombs that can tear through thick vehicular armor.

Historically, improved tactics in shooting down helicopters have proved to be important factors in conflicts in which guerrillas have achieved victories against major powers, including battles in Somalia, Afghanistan and Vietnam.

A senior military official in Washington said Wednesday that, while the episodes were still under investigation, the rash of helicopter shoot-downs appeared to be part of an insurgent strategy to inflict heavier losses on American forces at the start of the new push to secure Baghdad.

“There is certainly the expectation here that insurgents are trying to inflict some losses as we’re building up forces as a means to try to discourage the Iraqis and us that this is a futile plan,” the official said, speaking on condition of anonymity.

Several officials said it was unclear whether the attacks had succeeded because insurgents had adopted new tactics, but judging only by the number of successful attacks, it appeared to be part of a coordinated effort.

Part of the explanation, one official said, may be that fighters are simply firing at low-flying American helicopters. In recent years, there has been relatively little small-arms fire against helicopters, the official said.

One Air Force commander in Baghdad said the recent crashes appeared largely to be a result of old weapons long available in Iraq and not an influx of new hardware or technology. “I haven’t seen anything like that,” the American commander said.

The Sea Knight, the aircraft that crashed Wednesday, is a large transport helicopter that is easily distinguished by its twin rotors, one mounted near the cockpit and one mounted on a tall tail at the back. It can carry more than two dozen passengers and crew members. The military said all seven people on board died in the crash but did not identify the victims.

Video of the aftermath broadcast by the BBC showed bright red flames and thick black smoke billowing from the burning hulk of the helicopter as the wreckage lay in an open field.

Witnesses said the helicopter appeared to have been attacked from the ground.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/02/08/w...c2f75b6bedbe04&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss

Take your RKBA tinfoil hats off boys. A few well placed .22 can kill a man, and a few well placed .50 can take down small low flying aircraft. You figure after fighting us since 2003 they would have enough time to figure out how to down our helicopters.

 

[crazed_ss]

Yes I know a .50 Caliber machine gun can take down a chopper, but I'd imagine you'd have to be a pretty amazing shot to take down a chopper with a single shot from a .50 cal rifle. You'd have to hit the pilot or score a perfect shot into the engine or something.

 

[Art Eatman]

Since this thread, with time, has gone from "might be sent" to "found on site", and we have another thread running with the later information, I'm gonna close this one.

Art