LEO's and Citizens

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Wow, interesting to see the conclusions drawn from responses cherry picked from threads on other sites and the rather negative attitude toward LE, their training, and ability. Initially I thought there would be more responses from cops but given the tone of the thread so far I guess I'm not surprised that there aren't.

I'm a LEO and I'm all for "shall issue" concealed carry permits and would support Vermont/Alaska style carry laws nationwide. The real world truth, as has been stated, is that everyone is pretty much on their own. The adage "when seconds count, the police are only minutes away" is all too true. There's no way for cops to be everywhere all the time so the burden naturally falls to the individual to take steps to assure the safety of themselves and their families. Obviously the members here realize that but there are plenty out there that don't and we'd all be far better off if they did. I'm sure it would result in a reduction and simplifiction of the gun control laws that we all suffer.

For the record, I appreciate being notified if you are carrying. That simple courtesy goes a long way with me and saves us both the hassle that comes with me discovering it on my own.

Also, I'm gun guy. Been around them all my life, I own a bunch, I train and practice regularly, and I'm pretty damn good with them, if I do say so myself.
 
Here is an attitude about carrying. I have had to carry a gun for so long it feels good not to carry one every once in a while. But when I leave it behind, I'm nervous about that I may need it.
 
Unfortunately many people who oppose the private ownership of firearms confuse self defense with punishment. Opening fire with a pistol or revolver on someone who is commiting a violent felony against you or a third person isn't passing judgement or acting as an executioner, it's taking immediate action to preserve life and limb. Self defense, by it's very definition, is the use of force under circumstances of such acute and pressing danger as to not admit of delay. When you need to shoot, you NEED to shoot. There isn't time to wait for the Police, to summon a magistrate or to request an order of protection.

I remember receiving a call one night of an aggravated assault in progress where the subject was armed with a butcher knife. The man was a drug addict and a psychopath who had attempted earlier in the evening to recruit some people he had never met before into his "gang" (which only existed in his hallucinations). After being rebuffed, the subject left the area, retrieved a knife and came back to murder the people who had "disrespected" him. Fortunately, when the 911 call came in I was less than thirty seconds away from the location. The subject had cornered a small number of people in a hallway and was trying to kill them. When he saw my pistol pointed at his face and heard me forcefully instruct him that failure to drop the knife would result in his death he ceased his attack. He was crazy but he wasn't stupid.

What I just described occurred on a major military installation where I was working as a Military Policeman. If I hadn't shown up precisely when I did this subject would have murdered someone. He was a Soldier. His intended victims were Soldiers. Everyone in that hallway was a combat veteran. Everyone in that hallway was in good physical condition. But the subject was the only person with a weapon and that put him in control. Military regulations prohibit carrying firearms on post except in the performance of duty. If any one of the Soldiers he was trying to murder had been armed they could have stopped him but because they were rendered defenseless there was nothing they could do but frantically try to dodge his attacks and avoid bleeding to death on the floor. As it was, CQ was never able to get the blood stains out of the tiles.

Bottom line, I support both concealed and open carry by peaceable adult civilians without a permit or license. It's a natural right, it's a Constitutionally protected right and it's a right that can mean the difference between life and death not only for police and military but also for any honest person who is confronted with potentially lethal violence. Denying someone the right to carry a firearm to protect himself is tantamount to denying him the right to life, the right to liberty and the right to property.
 
WC145 I tried to post statements showing how attitudes seem to go along with different areas of the country, and if you read the threads on the links I posted you can see some very heated opinions on the subject of civilian carry especially in the thread on classroom carry. I have nothing but the utmost respect for the Florida sheriffs in this area because of an incident many years ago-short story when I was in my 20's I drank very heavily as well as dabbling in drugs and one night I was out on a binge and my wife being concerned had the sheriffs out looking for me. When I finally showed up at home one sheriff was waiting for me and got me out of the car,brought me inside in cuffs and after talking to my wife he said if I go to the hospital detox immediately anything I had on my person and in my car would go bye bye, well I went to detox and he kept his word and I'm still sober. This was in east central florida and I had never met this cop in my life before this. My point is attitudes are different here than where I grew up in NJ. Up there I witnessed horrible attitudes from the officers maybe justified maybe not but when you read these threads you will see that the majority of NJ,NY cops absolutely hate firearms and the people who own them are considered threats.
 
With respect to LEO's especially in urban areas, and especially, Chiefs of Police, I think that they are conditioned by what they deal with everyday. CoP's really hate to lose an officer, and cops patrolling in gang territories really do have the risk of a gunfight around the next corner.

But, like many of us in one way or another, when they focus on guns, they focus on the symptom, not not the cause, and they tend to lose track of the way they infringe on other people's rights, and hinder other people's ability to solve their own problems.

'Cause it's all about them.

Just like I think it's all about me.
 
When I was in northern VA, the police were not overly pleased with citizens open carrying, and the idea of encountering guns on the street seemed fairly displeasing to them.

In most places I've been/lived in north Texas (outside of Dallas itself), the state and local LEOs seem to treat the presence of a CHL as a pretty ho-hum affair. They may not cheer for it, but they don't seem to regard it as bad or a threat.

I've had occasion to observe that the LEO reaction to armed citizens is subject to change as you move from rural to suburban to inner urban settings.
 
CoP's really hate to lose an officer, and cops patrolling in gang territories really do have the risk of a gunfight around the next corner.
Similarly citizens really hate to be robbed, raped or murdered because a cop can't INSTANTLY materialize when they dial 911.. assuming their assailant ALLOWS them to dial 911.

Places like NYC and Chicago have made a conscious decision that having people be robbed, raped or murdered is a less negative outcome than having those people EFFECTIVELY defend themselves with a firearm. Cops who defend that policy (usually from those sorts of places) usually either have nothing to say in response or something contemptuous to say to those who have neither the "right" to be protected nor to protect themselves. "Tough luck" summarizes that attitude.
 
Most of the LEOs I know well, and I know more than a handful, do not fear the CCL holder and in fact recognize that those who take the time to go through the process and the training and pay their money for the license are law-abiding citizens who are worthy of respect. As one of them told me recently, "You guys aren't the problem, and every good cop out there knows it full well."
 
Another cogent response to the cop from LA was this one:
So you think we should leave it up to the professionals. Try this scenario out.

You are at the restaurant, you are having a heart attack and you need CPR immediately. I have been trained In CPR. Should I wait for the professionals to arrive they are only minutes away right "to take care of business" and hope for the best for you. Or would you want me, the average citizen to administer CPR on you and try to save your life?
Logic trumps emotion.
 
LEOs are not all the same.

Some will go into a building where shooting is going on......possibly innocent people are being massacred.

Some will listen to the gunfire but refuse to enter the building and instead call it in and wait for a heavily armed and armored SWAT team to arrive.

We have all seen this on T.V. in some of these recent college and high school multiple shootings.

The general public may not realize that the cops backed off, but most of us saw it.

Then there are cops that will dive in against all odds to protect unarmed and innocent people from being hurt.

If you can't carry a gun, you better hope for the miracle that one of these good ones shows up in time.
 
If you can't carry a gun, you better hope for the miracle that one of these good ones shows up in time.
99% of the time, it isn't going to happen with the most competent, conscientious cop who ever lived... or ever will.

It's simply irrational to expect the police to protect you as an individual.
 
Even in the NY area the numbers may surprise some people. I worked in NY and the NY area for 26 of the 31 years I was an LEO. An honest polling of LEOs in the NY area would probably result is statistics that would show:

25% support the RKBA and like the idea of an armned citizenry

50% don't actively support it but as long as people have permits that's okay

25% are antigun to some degree

That's been my experience anyway.
 
That's for sure.....I just hope they don't ruin it for all of us.

More states need to implement higher standards.
 
most leo i know dont mind at all, but you will always find 1 or 2 that think there is no need.
i have waited 13 min to have a sheriff car slide in and i have had them show up in 2 to 3 min... twice, they NEVER showed at all!!!! i was protected my MY firearm in ALL cases...
 
Question for LEO's on this forum. How do you feel about the 'armed citizen'?

I'm curious as to why you care how they feel. How do the teachers on the forum feel about it? How do the plumbers feel about it? I'm sure cops fill the same full spectrum of opinions and attitudes about every subject under the sun. Some like Coke. Some like Pepsi. They don't have to feel good about it. They should know and understand the laws regarding carry/personal protection in their jurisdiction.
 
FWIW, most of the police I've known here in Michigan don't have a problem with ordinary Joe's having a CPL. But like rbernie said, the police in the larger cities seemed to frown upon it more IIRC.

Overall though, Michigan is gun friendly and so are most of the police I've known. But this strictly anecdotal and really doesn't mean much statistics wise.
 
I'm curious as to why you care how they feel. How do the teachers on the forum feel about it? How do the plumbers feel about it? I'm sure cops fill the same full spectrum of opinions and attitudes about every subject under the sun. Some like Coke. Some like Pepsi. They don't have to feel good about it. They should know and understand the laws regarding carry/personal protection in their jurisdiction.

Fairly reasonable question, imho. A teacher or plumber can't arrest you or attempt to confiscate your lawfully held firearm. I'm pretty sure you won't find a single example of either happening, while you'll find lots of examples of citizens arrested, disarmed, or hassled for simple exercising their 2nd Amendment rights.

You're right on that everybody is different - and I agree completely with your last sentence. Too bad this isn't the case everywhere... :(
 
Wow, Home Depot George is amazingly uninformed about the real world....I wish in my world the Cops would follow me around, just to make sure nothing bad happened to me.
 
My Perspective

I have been an LEO for 32 years. I am pro-second amendment and a Life Member of the NRA. CCW is an individuals right, given they meet the legal criteria and choose to carry. Personally, I have never been bothered by a law abiding citizen having a firearm - permit or not. I would like to see more get involved in shooting sports, collecting, and hunting. If all of us don't stand together on 2nd Amendment issues - we could one day loose one of the privelidges that has made our country what it is.
 
Police response time

Someone has mentioned about when seconds count, police are only minutes away......

Here is an example.

I recently broke my leg. While I was at work, I got a phone call from my alarm company stating my front door at home had been breached. I noted the time and told them to call the police immediately. I live in a suburb of Los Angeles and we have a very good police department.

After thinking about the apparent break-in for a few minutes, i told work, grabbed my crutches and drove home, just a few minutes away. When i arrived, i noticed that the front door was closed, no windows damaged and no unusual cars. I drove around the block to check things out and went in my driveway. After entering the house, it was apparent that it was as false alarm, but i proceeded the clear the house, garage and yard anyway, and then sat on the front steps waiting for the police to show up. About 10 minutes later (about 25 minutes after the alarm) two police cars pulled up across the street from my house. I hobbled out to greet them, told them it was a false alarm. They did not get out of their cars.

About a month later, I received a bill in the mail for a false alarm. Due to the tardiness of their response, I went to the PD to see if I could bargain with them and get the bill reduced. One of the commanders went and got the officers' report and he stated that the police had arrived less than 5 minutes after the alarm and spent 25 minutes clearing the house and yard!!!! THEY DIDN'T EVEN GET OUT OF THEIR CARS. I was there, I know. He argued that the report is always right and i was mistaken. I checked with our alarm company and their records indicate that the police were called less than a minute after they called me at work. The police report also verifies this time. What were they doing for about 1/2 hour before they got to my house. Good thing my life did not depend on their speedy response.

Sometimes it is hard to trust those in charge. Late response and false report.
 
As a sworn LEO (retired) I can speak only for myself:

I have no problem at all with citizens being armed so long as they are law abiding citizens. In fact, I strongly encourage Open Carry (where legal, much as it is in my state) as well as Concealed Carry. All law abiding folk ought to be armed since it puts more "good guys" on the streets.

No felons need apply.
 
I really don't care how law enforcement officers feel. I have reason to believe that there are many many LEO's that should not even be allowed to be a unarmed security guard. This is not based on incidents that are reported on TV or in newspapers but from the internal investigations that have not been or that will never be released to the press.
 
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