Minn. man shoots cops after SWAT team kicks down wrong door

[mekender]

what we are talking about is simply verifying that the information they have is accurate before breaking down someone's door at 1 am. if they can't verify the information from reputable sources, it should not be used. of course, the judge who signed the warrant in the first place ought to be hounded out of office. their primary duty in such cases should be to hold the police feet to the fire to make sure only legitimate warrants are issued. I know if I was a judge and this kind of thing happened on a warrant I had signed based on the cops lying about the veracity of the information source, the cops who signed the warrant application would have some serious explaining to do.

i couldnt agree more... unfortunately judges tend to get pretty comfortable in their jobs and they know that it is pretty unlikely that they will get removed from office... there definitely needs to be more accountability... on both the judicial level and the enforcement level...

 

[lance22]

ilBob wrote: I don't know if that is a fair criticism. I do know our local club has some Chicago PD officers that shoot in the IPSC matches and I have heard nothing but praise for their safety and skill level. In fairness, these are guys that make the effort to go shoot more often.

If you ever read secondcitycop (a Chicago pd blog site) you will see one of the recurring complaints is the minimal firearms training. I like the blog owners response - something along the lines of if the PD training and practice ammo is inadequate, pay for it yourself.

I had in mind the LEO's that show up for their first or second match there are some that do well but more that do more on their first showing. I've seen them drop pistols, draw & eject mag (accidentally) instead of draw and fire, lotsa muzzle / finger problems their first couple times at matches. That's to say nothing of not hitting targets which we really don't care about from new shooters. Maybe in IL they get better training or something. I recall a couple LEO's who showed up thinking they were gonna show us mall ninjas how it's done and both handled their firearms so poorly we really had to stretch the rules to keep from DQ'ing them. It is my observation that LEO's - when at their first IPSC match - have poorer finger / muzzle awareness than non-LEO 'new shooters'. My opinion only.

After they have a couple matches under their belt they really take off but being a LEO apparently doesn't infuse them with the jedi skills that the media makes out that 'trained people' somehow possesss. And, I said in my first post that LEO's who attend regularly are fantastic shooters, highly skilled, professionals on whom you can trust your life. But, nobody who fires their gun merely 30 - 40 times a year can be either proficient or safe.

This is part of why I think it's good for people to be their own first-responders. The person who shows up to rescue you might only shoot two times a year. I once talked to one LEO who didn't even know off-hand the model or caliber of her sidearm. "I don't know the department gave it to me".

30 shots and no hits seems pretty on par.

 

[ilbob]

This is part of why I think it's good for people to be their own first-responders. The person who shows up to rescue you might only shoot two times a year. I once talked to one LEO who didn't even know off-hand the model or caliber of her sidearm. "I don't know the department gave it to me".

probably not that unusual. a lot of cops probably think of their gun as a tool not unlike their pen and ticket book. just something they cart around with them while they work.

 

[Offwhite]

Hitting an Asian wearing Pajamas has proven extraordinarily difficult at times, especially if the Pajamas are black. In fact thats the main reason they started using 30 shot mags instead of the old 20 rounders.
Even then it took about a hundred thousand rounds per kill.

You know oddly enough I have learned this out as well. If they are in black or dark robes they seem to be even harder to take down...when you take the pebble from my hand you will become the master...

 

[Master Blaster]

http://www.lewrockwell.com/grigg/grigg-w10.html

Our own little execution by SWAT here in DE.
The lawsuit will be in the millions.

 

[Deanimator]

but there is a balance... if you crack down so tightly that all of the officers hesitate before acting, officers will die... a patrol officer that has to stop and think about weather he's going to get sued or go to jail if he shoots a BG will take precious seconds hesitating before taking action...

What's the downside of a cop and his supervisor making sure he has the right address before he kicks in a door?

I can tell you the downside of him not doing so at my house. Somebody's going to get shot and probably killed. There are indeed people who shrug such things off. I don't happen to be one of them.

 

[TwitchALot]

Those responsible for faulty intel and kicking in the wrong door will be reprimanded and punished according to department policy up to and including termination.

Why should the guys who kicked the wrong door down be reprimanded? Was it his fault someone else gave him the wrong intel? If he checked the intel, wouldn't he still have gotten the same, wrong, intel? "It was some bad information that was received on the front end that kind-of trickled all the way through." How were the officers sent there supposed to know it was the wrong house when the people at the very top got it wrong?

That's just typical BS reporting.

I think you're just jumping the gun. To me that means, "we have no idea what's going on, but we're going to try to make our story sound good." For all you know the police have decided not to press charges and they just haven't told the media (and who likes the media?).

These cops are the worst shots in the history of law enforcement. If you cant hit a homeowner in his pajamas that you surprised in the middle of the night... with 30 rounds....in full tactical gear <this makes me smile at the mall-ninjas that think being decked out like a SWAT team makes you the UBERSOLDIER... obviously learning how to shoot helps.>

I don't know about you, and I'm no LEO by the way, but if I heard "two officers down," my priority would be getting those officers out of there, and putting fire down if need be to do so safely, not hunting down the guy who's probably behind cover hiding somewhere popping rounds downrange (at me and fellow officers).

And quite frankly, it's rather disturbing to see so many of you jump the gun like the anti-gun media. When the other side makes claims, you have be skeptical. But when "your side" makes claims, who cares if it's true or not?

I don't know about the rest of you, but I've heard enough of the, "it was like a war-zone" comments to believe this witness exaggerated (as tends to happen) or get the number wrong.

If there were truly honesty, integrity and balanced/fair reporting, the very first reports would have been on how Mr. Khang was victimizerd by an overzealous Swat team.

An overzealous SWAT team? The ones following their orders to the letter? The SWAT team was overzealous because the people at the very top got the information wrong? That sounds real honest and balanced and fair.

 

[USAFNoDAk]

Quote:
Hitting an Asian wearing Pajamas has proven extraordinarily difficult at times, especially if the Pajamas are black. In fact thats the main reason they started using 30 shot mags instead of the old 20 rounders.
Even then it took about a hundred thousand rounds per kill.

You know oddly enough I have learned this out as well. If they are in black or dark robes they seem to be even harder to take down...when you take the pebble from my hand you will become the master...
__________________

That homeowner will never order another "Pajama Blam" as long as he lives.

 

[Deanimator]

mistakes should be addressed

If a citizen makes a fatal "mistake" with a firearm that demonstrates wrecklessness or malice, he tends to go to prison. Not so much with police. Generally NOT AT ALL with the Chicago Police.

I'm sorry. Kicking in the wrong door is a strict liability offense. If you can't be bothered to do your job with competence, discretion and common sense, you should expect bad things to happen... to YOU. If I have to pick up the Garand, NOBODY'S going to be happy when things shake out. Face shields don't stop .30-06 ball.

 

[Wheeler44]

b

ut there is a balance... if you crack down so tightly that all of the officers hesitate before acting, officers will die... a patrol officer that has to stop and think about weather he's going to get sued or go to jail if he shoots a BG will take precious seconds hesitating before taking action...

I know that this will upset some folks but..........
I honestly hope that anyone hesitates before shooting just make sure of what they are doing.

Shooting from the hip (figuratively speaking of course) is what led to the incident in the first place. Not verifying the target (both the home in question and the poor guy at the top of the stairs in his underwear) can have dire consequences.

 

[Deanimator]

And quite frankly, it's rather disturbing to see so many of you jump the gun like the anti-gun media. When the other side makes claims, you have be skeptical. But when "your side" makes claims, who cares if it's true or not?

Ever heard of the Kathryn Johnston case in Atlanta?

1. Cops lie to get warrant.
2. Cops execute bogus warrant.
3. Elderly victim of bogus warrant shoots at cops in self-defense.
4. Cops (committing a felonious home invasion) riddle elderly victim with bullets and allow her to bleed to death.
5. Cops discover NO drugs nor any evidence of drug activity.
6. Cops plant drugs to cover up sham warrant, home invasion and murder.
7. Cops attempt to strongarm an informant into lying to support their "fable" about drug dealing at victim's home.
8. Informant flees cops and tells FBI(?) and media about police attempt to suborn perjury from him.
9. Police "fable" collapses like Ted Kennedy on a bender.
10. Three police officers charged in this series of crimes.
11. Two of three officers cop pleas. Third foolishly demands trial.

Now tell me why well informed people are EXTREMELY sceptical of ANY such police "mistake"...

 

[keeleon]

This guy should in no way have charges filed against him. The brass should be on their knees kissing his ass and apologizing. And the SWAT officer's that did NOT kill Kang should be thanked and commended for not letting a bad situation escalate out of control. How easy would it have been for them to justify hunting him down and obliterating him after he shot and downed 2 officers?

I'm curious, does anyone know who they thought they were going after, or what they were expected to be up against? I have no knowledge of police tactics, but 30 officers seems like a LOT to me for a simple drug bust. It must have been something pretty big they were going after, and yet with all the paperwork they have now, the BGs had PLENTY of time to ditch the evidence. Much more than if they would have just knocked.

 

[Deanimator]

I honestly hope that anyone hesitates before shooting just make sure of what they are doing.

Sorry, there really ARE people who want to kill me, or at least they've repeatedly told me so.

That being the case, I'd be a bigger fool than Paris Hilton if I just stood around with my finger in my ear when armed men kicked in my door. If I don't shoot first, I probably won't be shooting second... or at all.

If you kick my door in, I'm going to shoot you. If you don't want to get shot, don't kick my door in.

I'm in launch on warning mode. I don't have a choice. The police do.

Get the address right or accept the consequences. Those are the choices, the ONLY choices.

 

[Jeff White]

SWAT Team Out of Control Checklist:

1. Posts on the militarization of the police?............. Check

2. Posts where members were able to express how technically and tactically proficient they are by boldly stating how many police officers they intend to kill?..........Check

3. Posts where members link to the Cato Institute report on SWAT Teams?....Check

4. Posts where members increase their self esteem by saying the police can't shoot?.....Check

5. Pots where members who don't understand sovereign immunity call for the officers to be jailed although there is no hint of criminal misconduct?....Check

6. Guesses about what was on the warrant application by members who have never applied for a warrant and haven't a clue about the law?.......Check

7. Members ranting about Chicago PD, no matter where the incident happened?.........Check

8. Members calling for the SWAT Team to be disbanded?.......Check

9. Members calling for no knock raids to be stopped, even though there is no evidence this was a no knock raid?.......Check

10. Posts complaining about how the police drive?....Check

11. Posts referring to the Blue Wall of Silence? .......Check

12. Posts saying this never happened in Mayberry?.....None

13. No posts with any actual facts other then a news report?.....Check

Well boys and girls, 137 posts of of wasted bandwidth ranting and raving and speculation about something you haven't got any facts on. You hit 12 of 13 criteria for a good cop bashing thread not bad. I hope everyone feels better.

We've added another 100+ post thread to library of closed threads on this subject. This is as worn out as 9mm v. .45 and AR v. Ak.

You all are so predictable.

Jeff