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Moorhead considers replica gun ban

Discussion in 'Activism Discussion and Planning' started by Guillermo, Aug 17, 2010.

  1. Guillermo

    Guillermo member

    Here is a story that I just read. While some might think that this is not truly a firearm issue, banning the representation of a gun is our business.

    Moorhead police want it to be illegal to carry a replica gun in public. Officers say it will protect them and others who may be threatening with the fake guns. Police chief Dave Ebinger told the city council it's hard to tell whether the gun is a real firearm or not and that officers are forced to treat the replicas as though they are real. The chief also questions whether people with criminal records should be allowed to have replicas, since they are not allowed to have the real thing.

    I suggest an email to the police chief.

    Be polite

  2. Rail Driver

    Rail Driver Well-Known Member

    Ask yourself this question... Would you carry a non-firing replica? Would you carry an airsoft gun?

    There's a reason for this, and I don't think it's a bad reason.

    Carrying a toy gun no matter how real it looks can be dangerous to the carrier and to the people around him.

    Take this scenario, for example:

    Man carrying airsoft pistol walks into convenience store robbery... This is something that could happen to anyone at any time, not something that never happens. Criminal sees said airsoft pistol and shoots carrier before carrier can "draw his gun".


    Criminal sees airsoft gun and tells carrier to drop it, carrier does so. Someone behind or out of sight from the criminals grabs said airsoft gun and confronts criminals, they shoot and hit criminal with plastic bb and criminal wastes them with real gun.

    OR ... OR... or...

    The dangers of carrying a toy gun are just as serious as the dangers of carrying a firearm with the difference being that you can use a firearm to defend yourself if needed, you can't defend yourself with a toy short of throwing it at the BG.

    Banning the carry of non-firing, replica guns and toy guns that look real makes sense to me. As long as they're not banning or trying to ban the carry of firearms or other self defense items then I'm not going to worry about it.

    On Edit: Here are a couple links illustrating my point...





    As you can see this isn't a new issue.
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2010
  3. Cosmoline

    Cosmoline Well-Known Member

    Or howabout we stop trying to use the laws to cure stupid.
  4. Rail Driver

    Rail Driver Well-Known Member

    The problem with that is when these idiots go out and get themselves shot, it endangers the innocent people around them.

    I fully support natural selection, but instead of simply trashing on the lawmakers and the idiots that result in laws or proposals like this, why not come up with a better idea? It certainly doesn't help to sit at your computer and say "That's stupid." and continue on with your life.

    Just because it's a government agency making the proposal and some mentally challenged individuals that resulted in the proposal, doesn't give anyone the right to sit here and trash either group. This is still The High Road, if I'm reading correctly...
  5. Guillermo

    Guillermo member

    making any representation of a gun illegal is just another step.

    This would make kids toys illegal.

    This would make war re enactments illegal

    This is another nail in the coffin of the gun culture
  6. Old Fuff

    Old Fuff Well-Known Member

    Just how does the Chief expect to enforce his proposed law? The most likely persons who carry "fake" or toy guns (including airsoft) are teens and children.

    While there is some risk to the officers, I think that goes with the job. The better solution would be to use good judgment and "street smarts," not a new law. Hopefully the officers in Moorhead don't have a "shoot first and ask questions later," policy when they come across someone with a supposed weapon.
  7. Rail Driver

    Rail Driver Well-Known Member

    Guillermo: You're assuming that the proposed law is intended to target gun owners... That's another problem I see with gun culture on many of these boards... Every little thing that even sounds like it might affect guns in some tiny way is a direct attack on the right to bear arms... Come on, really?

    Use the proper channels and get yourself a copy of the bill as proposed. It's public information - you can get it sent to you fairly easily with not much more effort than a simple phonecall or email.

    I'd be willing to bet that it's got provisions for kids' toys when they're being used as intended, and also for re-enactments and other lawful uses of replica firearms. If it doesn't and they manage to get the bill to pass, I'm certain that it would be amended to include those and other provisions fairly quickly (as legislation goes anyway).
  8. Guillermo

    Guillermo member


    we live in a world where kids get suspended for drawing guns at school.
    GI Joe is not allowed onto airplanes if he has a plastic sidearm

    Yes, I assume that this is targeting the gun culture.

    And since the government that governs least governs best this is, with the most positive spin, needless.
  9. hso

    hso Moderator Staff Member

    The police chief doesn't make law, the elected officials in the community do. As such it's important to direct our efforts at the people that might make the law and not just the person that wants it made.

    I suggest the local news paper be contacted as well as the local TV stations. Use effective images contrasting kids with obvious toy guns in the US vs. kids with real guns being brandished and ask if reasonable people can tell the difference then why can't the Chief.

    If he can't tell the difference then there's not rational judgement in him.

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Aug 17, 2010
  10. Guillermo

    Guillermo member

    And let us assume that this is just a well meaning law.

    A- why is it needed? Is this a problem in Moorhead?

    B- so they have to try to write a law that allows for toys, and drill teams, and costumes and historical re-enactments, and buying gifts for nephews and GI Joe and wall hangings, and statues. By the time you are finished it is meaningless other than the hit on the gun culture.
  11. gun guy

    gun guy Well-Known Member

    This happened here. It's summertime two kids, nothing to do, lets go down to the school, nobodys there, play laser tag. Something we probably did with cap guns. A housewife across the street, looks out her window, see's a figure with what looks like a gun, calls the police, man with a gun on the school grounds. Two Officers show up weapons drawn, begin to investigate, thinking its his friend, a 12 yo boy jumps around the corner, into a combat stance and tags his buddy, the officer tags back with a .357 magnum. No right here, no wrong, just a horrible accident. The officer committed suicide 1 week later.
  12. Rail Driver

    Rail Driver Well-Known Member

    A- It could very well be a problem in Moorhead, but you and I don't know whether or not it is because you and I live in Texas and Florida.

    B- This is the problem with a great many laws written... Exceptions must be made in some cases to keep the law constitutional, in some cases based on different situations and conditions... Although it could be made a lot simpler, we have a problem in this country called too much government. This results in many laws that are either unenforceable, pointless, or simply wrong. Prohibiting the carry of fake guns isn't a hit on the gun culture, it's protecting the idiots in the gun culture from causing harm to themselves or others, including the mental harm done to police officers that shoot these fools carrying fake guns around.

    You have to look at the issue from more angles than just the view from your computer chair... Sure they don't want people walking around in public with fake guns... but it doesn't change the fact that my kid can still shoot his bb gun in the back yard, I can still carry my REAL pistol, and nobody gets hurt.
    It just means I can't put a fake gun in my holster and walk down the street like an idiot because "It's not a real gun though!"
  13. Guillermo

    Guillermo member

    So you think that it is okay for you to holster up and put a gun in it and walk the dog but it should NOT be legal to put an imitation gun in the holster and walk the dog.

  14. Rail Driver

    Rail Driver Well-Known Member

    Having a real gun in my holster doesn't endanger anybody. Having a fake gun in my holster endangers myself and everyone around me, including any officer responding to a "man with a gun" call which happens from time to time in OC states and in CC only states where the gun is seen by a third party (printing, stray breeze, poor choice of carry solution, etc).

    Sure the toy gun itself isn't a danger, it's the reactions of people around that make it a danger. Say you're carrying your toy gun down the block taking your dog for a walk and someone assaults you... A fake gun isn't going to help you, and could easily get you shot. The same holds true in LEO interactions where fake guns are concerned... It won't help you at all, and it could get you shot.

    Plain and simple, there is no valid reason to carry a fake gun. The benefits to carrying a REAL gun are plain, and apparently you support that right if you're here (unless you're an anti in disguise, which your comments make me wonder about).

    This is one of those laws where since the cops can't tell it's a fake gun, you could be shot if a fake gun is involved in any incident where you're carrying the fake gun. This particular proposed law (as you've posted it, not as it actually reads since I haven't read the actual bill, and apparently you're operating based on nothing more than a news story as well) seems to be fairly simple in premise... Keep people from carrying fake guns and getting themselves whacked. (for rationale, see the links I posted before)

    Sure it's a classic example of using the law to avoid stupidity, but then when you think about it most crimes are pretty much stupid anyway. You think it's intelligent (or even simply OK) to carry a fake gun around, be my guest. Don't expect to be mourned if and when it backfires on you or someone you care for.

    I'm not saying you or anyone you know would be dumb enough to walk around wearing a fake gun (unless they happen to be at an airsoft game or reenactment or what have you) but I am saying that some people obviously need to be protected from themselves.

    Because fake guns are pretty much indistinguishable from real guns in this day and age, it isn't too much of a leap to see some regulation on the use and display of fake guns. A few seconds on a google search will show you that these fools that carry fake guns around are good at getting themselves shot by police. Instead of carrying a fake gun so you can circumvent the law and avoid getting your permit, go through the training and other requirements to get your permit and carry something that will do you some good.

    As an aside, I don't support the permit systems in this country and I think carry permits should be abolished... Vermont and Arizona have the right idea, it's a constitutionally protected RIGHT to keep and bear ARMS (not toys)
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2010
  15. Guillermo

    Guillermo member

    I fail to see the logic

    So the fake gun endangers everyone because a cop might over react but they wouldn't over react to a real gun?

    (is not their reaction because they think the gun is real...so how can their reaction be different?)

    It is also fascinating that you support the right for everyone to go about armed but not faux-armed.
  16. Rail Driver

    Rail Driver Well-Known Member

    It's obvious you don't see the logic behind my opinion on the matter, even after I've posted links showing the dangers of carrying fake guns, and have explained myself into the ground on this topic.

    How about this... We can agree to disagree. You can go on thinking what you like about the situation and my opinion on the matter, and I'll go on thinking that anyone walking around with a fake gun because they can (since, of course, it's not a real gun and no fake gun has ever caused a fatality... see previous links) is an idiot.

    You look at it as a right to carry issue... I look at it as a common sense issue.

    Sure my gun is dangerous. I wouldn't carry it if it wasn't. HOWEVER: my gun is only dangerous to someone threatening life or limb *according to the laws of my state* in my presence.

    The difference is that (in most states, though some don't require permits) those members of society that carry firearms (real ones) have had at least whatever training their state requires. Permit holders don't often wander around waving their guns around, and certainly don't point them at police. Untrained individuals carrying fake guns in a manner that gives us legal carriers a bad image is worse for gun rights than a ban of fake guns is. Refer back to those links (if you bothered to look in the first place, which I doubt as you haven't referred to any of the incidents in the links) and you'll see what I'm talking about.

    Before you bring it up, yes I stated I believe permit to carry shouldn't exist (according to the constitution, we all have the right to keep and bear arms, not just those of us that have permits) and yes I mentioned that permit holders have at least basic firearms safety training, and training in their local laws... In the event that permit systems are abolished, a training system should absolutely be instituted so that everyone gets a foundation of firearms safety (think Switzerland but without the required military service time).

    Anyway, I'm done with this thread as it's degraded into nothing but an argument between myself and someone who can't look at things from anything but his own point of view, and those kind of discussions add nothing to the topic at hand.
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2010
  17. cambeul41

    cambeul41 Well-Known Member

    I think, in general, I agree.

    By law? Nah! I have little trust of those with the inclination and power to make laws to "protect us from ourselves." I suspect most of us see where this can and would lead. To be specific, that is exactly the rationale used by gun-grabbers.
  18. Rail Driver

    Rail Driver Well-Known Member

    Cambeul41, I only support protecting people from themselves by law when those people endanger others by their actions. As long as they're only endangering themselves, have at it... That's just today's version of natural selection (you know, since we've eliminated illness and weakness as an agent of natural selection for the most part).

    FIVETWOSEVEN Well-Known Member

    I think it would be more dangerous for you to carry a real gun Vs. a fake. If someone is that stupid to carry a fake gun than let them. I don't see how a fake is more dangerous than a real one. Why not make a law making it illegal to carry a unloaded gun? Same as carrying a fake isn't it? Both don't shoot.
  20. Rail Driver

    Rail Driver Well-Known Member

    With a real gun, if something were to happen, at least I have the ability to defend myself and shoot back. With a fake gun, I'm walking around with a big target on my back and no way to respond.

    Maybe I'm not clear enough, or can't explain it well but that's how I see it. Maybe someone else can explain it better.


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