Mosin-Nagant as a defense rifle

[Acheron]

Sometimes I think that people get so wrapped up in the tacticoolness of modern rifles that they forget the value and rugged reliability of good old fashioned steel and wood.

As has been said before, there are better rifles out there. But that doesn't mean you shouldn't appreciate and use the one you have. Let me put it this way: Sure there are better cars out there than my Honda, but that doesn't mean that I'm not going to drive it simply because there is something better.

In the end I think it comes down to respect. All we MN-lovers want is for people to understand that this is still a capable tool and has defended hearth and home for 116 years and counting. The MN may not be the best rifle ever made, but it still has its place and its usefulness. Whatever happened to respecting your elders?

 

[foghornl]

I can think of a few things that my M-44 does well....

With the right (or wrong!) ammo, it is a real "Blast" can start a campfire 30 yds away with the fireball (HA! not really, but does have a lot of Flash)

That steel buttplate is good for tenderizing tough cuts of meat....place a steak between rifle & shoulder...BANG!

Can fend off a couple of Baddies with the bayo while stuffing in another 5 rounds via the stripper clip...

Probably not the best first choice as a HD/SD rifle, but does have a lot of uses. Now, if you are the guy up in the tower, filling in the gaps in defenses, yeah a decent choice.

 

[silverlance]

fail to see where a Mosin Nagant is head and shoulders above the pack. Not the design itself, but these $50-100 run-of-the-mill versions you're talking about.

It is head and shoulders above the pack when you have ten guys with one mosin each vs one guy with a DPMS AR. you can afford to arm a small militia when each rifle is $59.

Further, you can afford to reload this ammo should the SHTF. all you need is an 8lb jug of win748, a lee loader kit, and a couple boxes of .311 bullets (or if you are really cool, a crucible and molds)

The mosin, as someone else said, is quite good at 1-10', and from 50-900'. Probably not your crappy big5 (like durnhams) special, but a good quality mosin, not even necessarily a Finn, can do well.

The mosin had a purpose - it was built for lined-up trench & volley combat. As such, it is very good for two things - defending a line against an enemy vector that you know is encroaching (think a bunch of guys behind a concrete wall, camped out for two days), or attacking en masse against a concentrated position.

in each of these the mosin shooter attempts to position himsel fso that he fires the first shot - which means that the advantage of the semiauto is thereby negated. a 200 grain bullet will certainly take the fight out of most folks.

further, think about home defense. lets say that youve got your whole family inside the master bedroom, NRA-style. the BGs are pounding down your door. you've got your Finn M39 with bayonet fixed (yes, you are rich in this fantasy and can afford an M39 bayonet). the first guy comes through the shreds of your door - BOOM! okay, scatch one. the bullet tears through the BG without pause and continues on until it hits dirt because you had the forethought to not aim up. the second BG wears body armor. no problem - 200grains of full metal jacket, steel core Czech silvertip zips right through that too. the last one comes in and... your rifle jams. yes, this is not supposed to happen, but it does, just as it can with any semiauto.

no problem either - you flip your grip over on your rifle (the grip is expressly designed to be used as a spear handle) and charge your doorway, skewering the last BG as he tries to backpedal through the doorway. you execute the lunge perfectly, stepping in hard, twisting, then stepping back out.

as the smoke clears, you can hear russian bells of the 1812 overture clanging in your head..

okay, i got carried away.

 

[Cosmoline]

You'd have to be in pretty dire straits to be forced to use (against today's US military) a five shot fixed magazine bolt action rifle produced circa WW2. They may fight, but they don't win.

It depends what you mean by "win." A Mosin can kill a soldier, and every one they kill is a victory. These guys don't generally hang around for face-to-face fighting. They like to cap off a round or two and run like crazy, letting the nearby civies take the brunt of the counterattack. Surely this isn't news to you. If they aren't using the Mosin they're often using an SVD clone in 54R.

Proven in what way, exactly?

Russo-Japan, the Great War's trenches, the Russian revolution, Talvisota, the partisan uprisings, Moscow, Stalingrad, the Ostfront, Berlin, Chinese Civil War, Korea, Vietnam, Soviet-Afghan, US-Afghan etc. What more do you want? The Mosin is one of the most battle proven war rifles ever made. It's literally been through the worst fighting in human history and has an excellent track record. There's no denying it's taken more of a back seat as the SKS and AK have taken on the brunt of the fighting, but it's still out there. You can see them popping up in weapons caches and in the hands of fighters on both sides.

 

[Funderb]

I would probably not go for a mosin if someone were breaking into my home.
I would have the rifle on my back, and would be sporting a pistol in my hand.
While some may prefer the close quarters, near hand to hand combat, I'd much rather keep my distance. As for the mosin being inaccurate, if you have shot one, and think that it is..
1. You bought one that had no bore left.
2. You are a miserable shot.
3. If you shot once and missed that does not mean the rifle is inaccurate, it is a very uncomfortable rifle to those children who shoot AR's.

And the term "accurate" does not really apply. Rifles are instruments of PRECISION, ACCURACY is the shooter's part of the equation.
Precision > Accuracy, and this is a constant.

So yeah, I'd have the mosin out. And maybe a 1911.
What else do you need?
Remember, more bullets in the mag does not make you more accurate.

 

[Cosmoline]

i wouldnt take a full sized m91/30 anywhere but the range.

It makes a surprisingly nice trail rifle. THe 91/30 and M-91 are still my favorite bear rifles and next to the CZ-452 brought in the most small game when I was off grid. I prefer an over-the shoulder balanced carry or having it slung across my chest. But I can certainly see why you wouldn't want one across your back on an ATV or for that matter in a tank. And I did bean a guy with mine by accident when I was riding the bike with a Mosin slug across my back. He was drunk but he still noticed.

 

[grimjaw]

You can see them popping up in weapons caches and in the hands of fighters on both sides.

If Lee Enfields and .303 were as available and cheap as Mosin Nagants, I suspect you would not see the same proliferation.

jm

 

[Funderb]

if any rifle were as cheap, AND as effective as mosin nagants, you would have a different scenario.


(and, not or.)

 

[Hoppy590]

If Lee Enfields and .303 were as available and cheap as Mosin Nagants

in areas like Afghanistan, they are extremely popular. and just cause something here in the US is expensive doesnt mean its not cheap and plentiful in the hot spots.

lots of SMLE in former british controlled areas, which a was a large part of the world. Africa, Middle East, India

the soviets were just more... giving. when it came to small arms

 

[ArmedBear]

The Mosin is one of the most battle proven war rifles ever made. It's literally been through the worst fighting in human history

Yup.

10.7 million Soviet soldiers died in WW II, most of them with Mosins in their hands.

Not sure what their presence in battle proves about their effectiveness in battle, other than that a Russian Winter is a more effective weapon against enemy infantry than any firearm ever was.

On Saturday, a friend put a plastic baggie with a heavy steel part in my hands. I looked at it, and he said, "It's a muzzle brake for a Mosin. I knew a guy who machined a bunch of them, and I found it when I was cleaning up my machine shop. Here you go." It's enormous, but I can't wait to see if it makes an M38 more pleasant to shoot. It can't make it less pleasant, anyway. I'll probably double up on hearing protection.

 

[Hoppy590]

10.7 million Soviet soldiers died in WW II, most of them with Mosins in their hands.

Not sure what their presence in battle proves about their effectiveness in battle, other than that a Russian Winter is a more effective weapon against enemy infantry than any firearm ever was.

and the soviets only gained enough ground to bury thier dead at the hands of Finnish Mosins. many germans died with mausers in thier hands, many americans with M1's and a crap load of japanese with Arisaka's

the mosin is a damn fine weapon. russian deaths are due to the human wave mentality and fear of suggesting anything to your superiors

 

[Cosmoline]

The Mosin was not to blame for the Red Army's reliance on costly human wave assaults. The Finns, who used more modern combat methods, also relied on the Mosin with great success. I'm talking about the RIFLES, so unless you're seriously claiming those millions died because the Mosins failed I don't see that it undercuts the rifle's reputation.

a Russian Winter is a more effective weapon against enemy infantry than any firearm ever was.

Also, "the Russian Winter" didn't win WWII. That's an old myth popularized during the Cold War as a propaganda tool against the Soviets. The mud and rains helped slow the German advance, but it would certainly have rolled over Berlin, Stalingrad and points east if it hadn't been for fresh reserves and a determined defense. Also, the winter didn't drive the Germans back to Berlin or take the capital. Besides, the "cold" wasn't that cold. The wetness, mud and muck were a bigger problem than actually freezing to death. It was certainly nothing like the Winter War. For me it would be shorts weather ;-)

 

[Mr White]

An M38 or M44 is the closest most of us will ever get to owning an actual flamethrower but they may not be your best choice for HD.

You: Standing over charred remains of would-be intruder with M44 in your hands.

Cop: You were justified in killing him, but we're gonna have to take you in for trying to cook him!

 

[ArmedBear]

russian deaths are due to the human wave mentality

...which is exactly the strategic philosophy that led to the Russians being armed with Mosins, and the mentality that's expressed above:

It is head and shoulders above the pack when you have ten guys with one mosin each vs one guy with a DPMS AR.

Lemme tellya what... I'm not going to be joining any militia led by someone with that sort of strategic philosophy. No American force has ever succeeded by volunteering to be cannon fodder, from the French and Indian War to Iraq.

The Mosin wasn't to blame for the strategy. It was, however, the tool chosen to execute the suicidal strategy.

In WW II, 407,000 Americans were killed, many with Garands in their hands. That would be about 25:1, or about the difference in rate of fire between the Garand and the Mosin.

Now I'm not suggesting that correlation implies causation. But a Mosin a "damn fine weapon" by any modern standard? I mean, the Brown Bess helped sustain a vast empire, too, but I wouldn't want to face one guy with a modern weapon if I had 20 with muskets.

And while millions of Germans were killed, the Allies carpet-bombed them day and night for a long time. That wasn't a test of infantry effectiveness, exactly.

Cool collectible? Sure. Cheap? Yes. Durable? Yes. Relevant in the modern military context? Please!

 

[Cosmoline]

which is exactly the strategic philosophy that led to the Russians being armed with Mosins, and the mentality

I'm not sure where you got that idea. The other powers also relied on bolt action rifles of similar parameters during the time period, and the Soviets had plenty of full and semi auto firearms to fill out a rifle squad's arsenal esp. as the war developed.

In WW II, 407,000 Americans were killed, many with Garands in their hands. That would be about 25:1, or about the difference in rate of fire between the Garand and the Mosin.

You can't possibly be serious. We fought a very different war and had a very different socio-economic system in place. Giving credit to the Garand for the difference in casualty rates is complete claptrap. You don't judge a weapon system by the outcome of the war or the methods used by the generals. You judge it by how it actually performs in the hand under adverse conditions. The Mosin has proven itself. Maybe we had better generals than they did who placed higher value on our soldiers' lives, but that's another issue.

Other than suppressive fire ability, what exactly is this vast advantage you're seeing for a semiauto over a Mosin or similar war rifle home defense?

 

[ArmedBear]

The wetness, mud and muck were a bigger problem than actually freezing to death.

Same difference. Weather and logistics were the Soviets best weapons. The Germans would not have rolled over the Soviet Union, when they were running out of supplies. My uncle was there, BTW, a conscripted Austrian (as in, put on this uniform or your family all dies). When the SHTF, he turned his Mauser on his own CO, who was about to abandon his troops, and took the train out of there just in time.

Furthermore, the Russians did mount a determined defense. I never meant to diminish that. That defense was very costly in human lives, though.

The Mosin was never meant as a weapon that would do much to help keep an individual soldier alive, any more than the Brown Bess was. It was made for large-scale offensive use, as determined by the Russian strategy of the time.

That's one reason why I wouldn't choose it for self-defense, if I had a choice.

 

[AtticusThraxx]

That there's three pages of comments about Mosin-Nagant as a home defense weapon tickles the heck out of me. Look if you need to defend your home and all you have is a MN, fine. But you'd better be saving your pennies for a loud, light-sleeping dog and a 12ga pump. If your serious.

 

[azredhawk44]

I love my 91/30.

It has yet to fail to fire or fail to eject/extract.

I am certain that I am the weak link in its peak accuracy.... that being said, I was shooting a 12" pumpkin at 250 yards this last weekend with my Mosin and some of that 50+ year old green lacquered surplus ammo. And consistently hitting. While it may not be Marine Sniper detail shooting, it is consistent sub-5MOA performance from a cheaply mass produced light barrel rifle with 75 years of age on it, and 50 year old ammo. I have yet to feed it any more precise handloads... I'm shooting up my surplus first before I use my Graf's brass or any of my retail S&B boxer primed ammo.

Even with the full length stock, it is a surprisingly light rifle. I would think that dropping the action into a modern polymer stock would make it even lighter.

It makes a good hiking partner, though I prefer a Win94 for this task (but no big critters are around that a 30-30 won't take care of). The cartridge is a respectable performer on deer, elk, moose or black bear. I think the 91/30 is a better defensive rifle than the M44 and other shorter derivatives due to the spear-like nature of the full length beast. It is not a fast action rifle to repeatedly fire, made even more so by my southpaw proclivities. But that bayonet will reach someone over 3 feet away from you lickety-split. 1-2 shots, then stab. It's benefit over other platforms is that loooong barrel and bayonet.

 

[Cosmoline]

The Mosin was never meant as a weapon that would do much to help keep an individual soldier alive,

I'm not sure where you're getting that idea. You still seem to be confusing the tactics of a particular military force with the intended design of a rifle it happened to use. The Mosin was meant to fire a three line projectile at supersonic speeds. There's nothing about it that makes it limited to use in human wave assaults. It can cover the full range of uses of any war rifle from the 20th century, from hunting to sniping to hit-and-run to assault to trench warfare. The Mosin has done it all and then some. Just look at the Winter War, where the Mosins served on both sides and were used for a full spectrum of tactical purposes by commands with fundamentally different theories of modern warfare. Mosins there were used in human wave assaults and in shooting down the assaulting forces. They were also used in innovative hit-and-run attacks and for some of the most effective sniping ever. They were used for hand-to-hand fighting and for hitting dark shapes far away.

 

[KiltedClaymore]

hey, anyone wanna guess what weapon the soviets feared the most while in Afghanistan? the Enfield and the Mosin. the soviets would tear apart a entire village looking for them if they found ONE .303 or 7.62x54r casing within afew miles of said village. soviet opperators crapped themselves when they found that the .303 goes THRU their "bullet-proof" vests.

 

[ArmedBear]

Cosmoline, a rifle designed around certain tactics is optimized for those tactics. That's not confusion. If you think it is, you didn't read what I wrote.

Or do you think the Brown Bess is effective when long-range accuracy is required? The M4 Carbine is a good choice for a sniper rifle if you have another choice? The Garand is the best choice as an entry weapon for urban warfare? Sure they all spit lead out the muzzle, but they're designed to be optimal for specific missions.

A Mosin 91/30 is 48.5" long and weighs 9.5 lb empty, has a capacity of 5 rounds, and it has a rate of fire significantly lower than an 1873 Winchester.

The M38 or M44 is shorter, but a tad more difficult to fire rapidly and effectively.

While it spits lead out the muzzle, even accurately in some cases, to suggest that it is a good choice for every mission you list, in the modern context, ignores reality. Sure, it's a gun.

WRT Afghanistan, what that says is that the gun can make for an effective sniper rifle. That doesn't speak for its ability to function as a defensive weapon in a modern context, though.

Again, it's a gun. Ballistically, it's about like a .30-06 deer rifle, give or take. Nobody says that all those deer aren't dead, or that the people killed with the .30-06 in WW II and other conflicts aren't dead. But I don't see anyone advocating a Remington 700 CDL as a good choice for a defensive weapon, either.

Why not? Because it's not built to handle that mission optimally, any more than a Mosin is.

The 1853 Enfield was a helluva military rifle in its day, also. That doesn't mean it's a great choice for defense right now.

 

[Funderb]

+1 for Armed Bear

 

[Hoppy590]

Armed Bear, maybe you didnt read the first 2 pages of this thread. but everyone as already covered the "not as good as alot of things, better than nothing" we got it. were not saying its great for HD. but its better than nothing

you came in and started takeing it to another level to insult the rifle

yes, the mosin was used because
Be cheap
be simple
be robust
be reliable
be peasant proof.

all traits shared by the SKS and AK as well.

soviet doctrine does emphasize massive conscript armys, because thats what they see fit best. then had german at thier door, and japan at theier rear. we had ocean. we had time to wait, build quality M1's and train men properly.

they needed men and mosins. 10,000 Men with mosins would be quicker and easier to get into action than 1,000 trained GI's with M1's. if they waited to train, more of russia would have fallen under nazi rule

and post war they had poor war ravaged satalite nations to support. so again. arming all of them fell back to Simple, cheap, and peasant proof.

when you dont have the time for quality, quantity is better.
when you need to make quantity, keep it cheap
when you dont have the technology, keep it simple
when you dont have the eductaion level, keep it peasant proof
when you cant garentee a solid supply line (see. Stalingrad) keep it reliable
when you run out of ammo, it damn well better be robust to club with

thats why prewar Mosins are generaly considered the best and war era are considered short cut rifles


the undereducated peasants, the technology level, the rushed cicumstances and the shakey supplies all FAVOR quantity over quality, and that leads to human wave attacks


Added:

which is exactly the strategic philosophy that led to the Russians being armed with Mosins, and the mentality that's expressed above:

the mosin was adopted in the Czarist days when russia was still an Empire of considerable skills. fleet out of nothing, well trained soldiers.

 

[KiltedClaymore]

you tell 'em Hoppy

 

[esmith]

It depends what you mean by "win."

I agree. If a soldier can get 3 or 4 deaths with his mosin before he is killed, then this may be considered a win on some part. This is why commanders such as Ulysses were known for sending their men in combat and not really caring too much if they were slaughtered so much as they killed more people than their enemy did.