Online "discount" gun dealers

[Bubbles]

Don't expect this luxury to last much longer. States are already cracking down on internet sales tax "losses".

Yep, and it's actually quite easy for states to force dealers to collect and remit the tax, as 1) we're already registered with the state anyway, and 2) if a law gets passed saying we have to do it, adhering to all state and local laws is part and parcel of keeping the FFL.

Very few states will neglect to tap this source of revenue, as they can do it without "raising taxes". Don't expect the NRA or anyone else to lobby against it either, as it's not an RKBA issue, and it's very hard to make the case in favor of tax evasion.

 

[mgmorden]

The tax issue I don't even see as that major. I report the purchases at the end of the year anyways, but even if I didn't, even with the addition of sales tax and transfer fees the local shops around here STILL charge more (in many cases a lot more).

Buds price on a Kel-tec PF9 for example around $250 shipped. + $15 transfer and 7% tax ($17.50) and the total is $280.50.

Last one I saw in a local shop: $375. Plus 7% tax ($26.25) and we have a total of $401.25.

It ain't the sales tax that's the problem.

 

[oneounceload]

I always give my local transfer guy who has a small shop the chance to meet or beat the price from a place like Buds. Most of the time, he can. Since, like buds, he carries a small inventory, his carrying costs are minor, thus his markup can be lower and he can make a profit and still beat Buds

 

[Voltia]

A gun dealer needs to make 35% on what ever he sales to make a living and to keep his doors open this the lease he cam make. Do you discount your labor?

Pardoning your mutilation of the Queen's, I THINK you're trying to say that he needs to cover overhead and this should be expected to be the "least he can make", or maybe "pay the lease."

35% (your number) on a 1000 dollar gun is 350 dollars. I refuse to pay hundreds of dollars over wholesale price just to keep a local gun store in business. Also, I call BS on your figure of 35%. A successful gun store moves MUCH product, yet their overhead remains the same. A successful gun store would be able to get by with a slimmer profit margin, as they would be selling quantity.

That being said, other than being able to inspect before you buy, online sales are better. It comes closer to you, it's cheaper, the selection is better, etc, etc. Am I supposed to 'feel bad' and 'support' a gun store? Of course not, it would be like refusing to deal with email because you like the postal service.

Lastly, dealing with your insinuation that I should discount my labor, you should realize that a firearm is a good, not a service. Thus, I can get the same good from elsewhere and it is not somehow 'more special' because it went through a gun store. Capitalism means that, when someone finds a better way to do your thing, you either adapt, or lose. This is not a socialist country, I don't have an obligation to support outdated methodology, and I can shop where I choose. End of article.

 

[Steel Talon]

Can't argue buying guns on line is a great way to save money. However, you still need to find a local to handle the transfer. $25.00 is all fine and good but I'm seeing higher transfer fees. And some dealers saying you want that model then buy it from me..

 

[surveyor]

Tom,
in post 26 I was discussing a LGS I deal with, brick and mortar store, inventory, set hours, deals in new, used, special order..
he would rather sell a gun he has than do a transfer..

he has competitive prices..
case in point, a Para gi expert stainless..
buds had it for 585 with free shipping, No tax.. through another dealer (no storefront, no inventory, website showing distributors stock) I can get transfers for 15, so its 600 OTD...this dealer has no problems doing transfers and is happy doing them..

LGS had it for 600, + 5 backgrd chk, + 42 tax.. so its about 50 bux more..

it starts to add up on a more expensive item..

But he had it in stock, and we both can't help that at a brick and mortar I have to pay sales tax.. I still dealt with him as I thought price was good..and I want him to stay in business

each business has its niche..no problems about that.. for hard to find items, I'll go with the no storefront, no inventory,web based as they tend to do better follow up on backordered items than the LGS..

case in point..22 conversion for 1911.. put in a ask to be notified when in stock again request at small non stocking dealer, and told LGS to put one on backorder for me at same time 11 months ago.. each time I went in LGS I asked about it.. I got a email from non stocking dealer it was available..last week.. told him to order it..

went to LGS and told them I found one..price about the same within 20 bux from both places, but service was better at one..

for things I want to pick up and hold, feel to see it it meets my needs, the LGS if within 75 +/- diffrence OTD.. for used LGS for special order on accessories, LGS gets them for 10% over cost.. can't be more fair than that..

granted items are goods, but the fact that someone stocks them, offers accessories on hand, has new and used items, offers lay away, and gunsmith services, and competitive prices is more a service, so I'll pay more for that..

for a purely I have held the item before, and know what I want, don't need after sale service, the dealer who has no stock and does a lot of transfers is the cheapest way to go..

I've done both..

still anytime I want something new, I'll ask the LGS what is there price on it first..
lots of times they can match the interworld, other times not so..

for items from the interworld or online auctions, I'll use the other non stocking dealer..

the LGS is usually closed on weekends as they travel for shows.. so you never know what they have come across in trades..

 

[jef2015]

My LGS is doing what I think is going to be the future of many of the small brick and mortar gun stores. He built a web site which shows his distributor's stock. The prices are great, some are better than Bud's.
I think it's win - win. The LGS is getting great exposure through the internet, he doesn't have to keep an inventory of every gun and I am sure he makes more than just a transfer fee. The customer may not be able to handle the firearm before the purchase, which is a downside of all internet purchases, but can take solace in the fact the seller is a lgs who should handle problems that may arise after a gun purchase.
I think it is a great idea and will give this small local store a chance to succeed in a very competitive market.

 

[InkEd]

I'll pay a little extra to get it immediately and from a local store. However, I have a about $60 max on it. Usually my LGS (well, the one I still shop at frequently) is within about $35 of the final price (including transfer) compared to online. They have only missed one sale to the internet from me in the last two years. They do alot of volume and thin margins with a LARGE inventory.

 

[lobo9er]

Maybe you should join the craze and sell online? offer lowprice transfers keeps people coming in and maybe picking up other gear too.

 

[Zach S]

Most accessories are purchased online since I'm not local to the dealer I prefer - otherwise I'd have him order it. I used to have him order the stuff when I was in there every weekend.

I've purchased two firearms online. One was a CNC AR45 lower, transfered at my then LGS. The latest was a STI Spartan in 9mm, pending shipment and transfer. I couldn't find a 9mm 1911 locally.

 

[oneounceload]

LGS had it for 600, + 5 backgrd chk, + 42 tax.. so its about 50 bux more..

You can't hold the tax against him - that is simply collected and passed through - and more and more states are requiring the collection of sales taxes as folks are not voluntarily paying it (like they are required to do)

and the background check is the same anyway

 

[JD Armory]

As a part time FFL who has a small commercial storefront, I've found my prices, even with about a 15% mark up for profit, are pretty well in line, and often lower, than most online stores after transfer fee. The one exception is some of the more expensive guns (maybe $900 or $1,000+), where the 6.5% sales tax I have to charge really starts to add up and I can't compete with Bud's. I do live in a state where people are supposed to report their out of state purchases, so that shouldn't matter, but of course most people don't.

I don't get angry with people who buy online and transfer through me, I have the lowest transfer price in town for a reason. Before I agree to do a transfer, I usually try to convince them to buy through me if I can get it for the same price or less, oftentimes that works. The rest of the time people end up coming back and buying something from me after the see how low my prices are.

 

[drsfmd]

1) Most gun shops margin on new guns is 8%-12%... and customers begrudge us that little smidge of profit.

2) Many FFL's are refusing to do transfers on new guns... if they can get it for you, they aren't going to let you transfer one in through them.

3) Look up "use tax" for your own state. Most of you already owe the tax on the online sales, and are tax cheats for dodging them...

 

[Jeff H]

and the background check is the same anyway

Curious. What states charge for background checks?

 

[wojownik]

Well, the great Commonwealth of Virginia, for one, charges for background checks, $2 in state residents, $5 out of state.

So, for me, the shipping + transfer fee + VSP fee typically that boils down to around $57 all-in on top of the Internet price. So, if the LGS is, say, even $80 or so above Internet price, it's worth it to see the actual item I'm buying beforehand, and get support from a good local vendor (one of the three I mentioned in a previous post).

But if the LGS is much above that, then going with the Internet seller makes the most sense.

 

[oneounceload]

Curious. What states charge for background checks?

FL charges for each gun purchase

 

[duns]

... no sales tax shipped to my state...

In my state (TX), I understand that a "use tax" has to be paid by the purchaser if a taxable item is bought out of state and the vendor did not charge Texas sales or use tax.

 

[kenjabroni]

I have bought 3 guns. Two at one shop and one at another one. Where I have bought my last two, I also shoot at their range. They are always busy as heck it seems but do their best to answer any questions we have. I think supporting places like that and paying a few more bucks than these online shops is definitely worth the experience. We get to see and hold many more weapons by doing this. Heck last week we walked in and they put us on the list for the range before we even asked. I think if you can find a shop that does its best to work with you and help you out then you should return the favor.

 

[TenRingGuns.com]

I love the discussion and interesting insights you all are posting here!

Honestly, what I see happening in the future, is that one won't be able to buy a gun online. I can't remember the piece of legislation but I recall a state that was going to ban online gun sales due to "security" issues.

The tax issue is the other kicker, all the states want a piece of the pie. I could states not just taxing them but taxing them more than other items.
In the great state of WA, you've got to pay "use tax" on all firearms purchased out of state, new or used. This policy is sure to come to your state if it hasn't already.

My main argument to anyone considering buying online is this: you'll be paying for the price of the gun, shipping, the FFL transfer fee, as well as use tax. When all is said and done, you're better off buying the gun from me directly. So far, my customers have been realizing this dose of reality make their dream of buying a gun for a few dollars above cost more of a hassle than what it's worth.

Saw a few comments about my transfer fees. My transfer fees are super low, $25. First, I hate gouging customers and I like helping people out. But when things get busier, like they have been recently, I'll be raising it; it's just not work my time. That's really what it boils down to, time. Other dealers in my area charge at least $50, most $75. One place even charges an extra 10% if they sell the gun you're transferring through them.

Business has been good so far (last 5 months since I've been open). But time has been the biggest factor for me so far and working full time, school full time, and family, make it hard to do anything. I spend a lot of time with each of my customers, researching products, answering questions, etc. I'm launching a new website here shortly where my customers can buy online; this will be a huge time saver for me.

Keep the comments going, I love reading what you all think about this issue.

 

[bsheets20061]

i have found that most of my lgs around here cannot compete with online gun sales as most of the sites i use offer free shipping with the purchase. I still patron their stores and have my firearms shipped to them paying a tansfer fee $10.00 for 5 minutes of their time they are more than happy to do it, the much cheaper gun free shipping and small transfer fee online is usually the optimal way to go for me, but I buy most of my ammo from them and from time to time buy one of their nice used items. This is a virtual world the online game is getting easier and easier maybe its time to expand to online sales and shipping?


forgot to mention I see the opposite for online sales, eveything in life is becomming more internet based i see sales skyrocketing further.

 

[Pietro Beretta]

California firearm prices are completely outrageous, I did make friends with a firearm shop owner (who later sold the business) and that would allow me to get a half way decent price. Still I would find much better deals through buds than my local dealers. When your saving 100 - 175 dollars, after delivery and transfer, its being a smart consumer.

All the normal FFL dealers in my area wanted to charge upwards of $50-80 to do a transfer. That's when I took my time to find a FFL that had no problems doing transfers for $25, he didn't own a shop they ran their business out of their house, and they were the nicest couple I ever met.

Come up to Oregon and the firearm prices are totally reasonable and maybe $25-50 over buds, totally reasonable and now I like to shop locally.

Still when someone doesn't have what I want available, I am going to get it where I can, that's how I am -- I want what I want and if I can afford it I want it now. Being in Oregon, we don't have sales tax so that's not an issue.

Another thing I like about buds is their Layaway program, and buds always has better offers on firearms I want to sell than the local shops.


That being said, I definitely understand that brick and mortar stores are more expensive because you get a level of personal service you cant get in an online transaction.

 

[Davek1977]

: you'll be paying for the price of the gun, shipping, the FFL transfer fee, as well as use tax. When all is said and done, you're better off buying the gun from me directly

this simply isn't true in my opinion. The MAJOR online retailer most often referred top her is of course Bud's...which charges NO shipping on firearms. My transfer fee is $20, and tax, if paid, still routinely fails to add up to the total my local dealers come up with as a "out the door" price. Sure, I've had them, like you, tell me when all is said and done I'll be paying more online, but most often, that simply is not the case, and simply mathematics can usually prove it in a matter of seconds. There are reasons to buy local, but the idea that "you'll pay more buying online" is VERY VERY rarely one of them in my experience. It chaps me to have someone tell me "Oh, you're better of buying from me" when two seconds with a calculator can turn them into a liar. If you insist on lying, at least lie to me in a way I can't disprove in seconds. Being played for a fool is rarely conclusive to long term business arrangements

 

[mgmorden]

Honestly, what I see happening in the future, is that one won't be able to buy a gun online. I can't remember the piece of legislation but I recall a state that was going to ban online gun sales due to "security" issues.

All legistlation discussed for such things has been not for online purchasing as from Buds, but online purchasing from sites like Armslist where purchases are ARRANGED online but paid for and done face to face.

It's just another veiled attempt at them tackling the so called "gun show loophole" (aka private sales).

Online sales transferred through a dealer are here to stay. You can put your fingers in your ears and yell "la la la" but it isn't going to stop them. Acting as a transfer agent becomes profitable through volume. Selling guns still can be profitable too, but learn from the big boys (and in essence, BECOME one of the big boys): you need to SELL online, have a good working website, and have a functional inventory system. You also need to embrace volume sales. Making a 3% profit on $10 million in sales is a lot better than making 20% on $500,000 in sales.

 

[drsfmd]

forgot to mention there is no tax for online purchases in ohio unless purchased from an ohio based dealer, I see the opposite for online sales, eveything in life is becomming more internet based i see sales skyrocketing further.

Totally 100% incorrect. 10 seconds with my friend Google showed me that you do indeed owe tax on internet purchases...

Ohio Use Tax laws
Specifically From the FAQ

The most common situation that gives rise to a use tax liability is when an Ohio customer makes a mail order purchase from an out-of-state seller. Use tax is also due when the purchaser improperly claims exemption from the sales tax or if the sales tax paid is less than the total use tax in effect in the county where the item is used or benefit of the service is received.

 

[Tim37]

i guess theres enough competion around here it keeps the prices competative with the online stuff i have yet to find something that i can order on line that i couldnt get for just a few bucks more local. the main thing i would save on is taxes. i have a ffl that said he would transfer for $20 bucks and i still havent found a deal i couldnt pass up if i just call around i can usualy find it for aroudnthe same and get it that day.