Ortgies Pistol 7.65mm Chambering

[deeque]

Can anyone advise whether there is an alternate 7.65mm chambering other than the 7.65mm browning/.32acp cartridge for the Ortgies pistol? The standard round, when chambered, will not allow the slide to fully close due to the cartridge rim between the barrel and slide's bolt face. Without a cartridge in the chamber the bolt face nearly touches the end of the barrel when in battery which leads me to believe the proper cartridge should be a rimless one that headspaces on the case mouth. I can find no reference to any other 7.65mm cartridge for this pistol other than the 7.65mm browning/.32acp.
The pistol is, I believe, a scarcer model that has the thumb safety (unfortuntely broken off) on the left grip panel. All numbers match, including barrel, frame, slide and smaller internal parts so it seems to be original, as well, there seems to be no apparent modifications. Is there something I'm missing here?

 

[Dr.Rob]

I only see those listed as 32acp and 380acp.

 

[Rembrandt]

Ortgies came in 6.35mm and 7.65mm.....an engraved one chambered in .25ACP sold at auction some years back.

 

[ApacheCoTodd]

I'll look at mine tomorrow at the shop but you got me to wondering if the semi-rim is deliberately showing as a form of "loaded-chamber" indication.

Is your extractor completely seated around the rim in the state you mention?

Also - that's where it headspaces - the rim, so it doesn't sound too off.

 

[JERRY]

there were a .32acp and .25acp at my LGS for 299 and 199 respectively....they werent in good shape finish wise....theyve sat for some time but somebody did buy the .32 though i dont know what they haggled them down to.

 

[Jim K]

AFAIK, there is no "alternate" 7.65 chambering for that pistol. It is possible that there is something in the chamber that is not allowing the cartridge to seat fully or possibly the extractor is interfering, which could happen if the extractor is not right or the extractor spring is too stiff. (Older guns often have incorrect or home-made parts.)

Jim

 

[deeque]

Thanks for all the replies. I've done a bit more research on this problem but haven't come up with anything conclusive.
The 7.65mm Browning/.32acp cartridge the pistol is supposedly chambered for does fully seat in the chamber, the rim seating solidly on the rear of the barrel face. The slide comes fully forward and seats flush on the rear of the cartridge case. The slide at that point is about .045" or so from completely closing. This can easily be seen at the rear of the pistol where the slide is not flush with the frame but is sticking out by about .045" (same as the rim thickness). It cannot be forced to close further. Conversely, without a round chambered the slide goes fully forward and is flush with the frame. This indicates to me there is very little space between the slide face and barrel face...typical perhaps of a rimless cartridge chambering. I also see no problem with the extractor interfering with functioning/chambering operation of the pistol.
There are no obstructions in the chamber that I can see. I measured the depth of the chamber with a venier guage and it shows .655", barrel face to bore. The 7.65mm Browning/.32acp case dimension, rim to case mouth, is .635". So I would think this is ok. Also, after searching around, I cannot find another cartridge that may work in this instance.
Anyway, this is really puzzling and if anyone can explain it I'd love to hear from you.

 

[rcmodel]

I found this in this:
http://unblinkingeye.com/Guns/Ortgies/ortgies.html

Gerhard Bock, in the 1923 edition of his book Moderne Faustfeuerwaffen und ihr Gebrauch, states that when there was a cartridge in the chamber of the early Ortgies pistol the slide would stand off the back of the barrel about 1 mm and that this could be felt in the dark by the thumb on the back of the slide, serving as a loaded chamber indicator. Bock states that this feature was eliminated from later guns. Bock being such a well known authority, we cannot doubt him, though no other source mentions this feature. A U.S. collector tells us that all of the second variant guns in his collection have the loaded chamber indicator feature, as do two of his third variant guns. We would like to hear from other readers with Ortgies pistols that have this feature.*

rc

 

[Jim K]

If that is true, we live and learn. First time I heard of it.

Deeque, when the gun is loaded that way, does the extractor snap over the rim to allow an unfired round to be extracted?

Jim

 

[rcmodel]

First time I heard of it.

Me too.

I had already typed a long winded post telling him his gun was broke when I ran across it.

I have only owned one Otgies in my life, and that was too long ago to remember anything much about it.

rc

 

[ApacheCoTodd]

OK I looked at and loaded a round into my 7.65 at the shop today. The round is completely seated in the chamber when the rim is flush with the end of the barrel - at least on mine. No slop, no resistance, just dropped in by gravity till smoothly seated.

So:
Dimensions of the case/round used
Dimension of the chamber is not 7.65/32 ACP
Chamber is correct yet obstructed

Just for the heck of it - can you see down the bore clearly?

 

[deeque]

Rcmodel: I think you hit the nail squarely on the head. That obscure reference by Gerhard Bock to the slide standing off the rear of the frame as a "loaded Chamber Indicator" is exactly the situation I have. ApacheCoTodd made reference to the same thing in an earlier post but it seemed so odd to me that a manufacturer would use a method like that to indicate a loaded chamber but, sure enough, that was correct.
Once I read it I felt confident it was the answer to the situation I had, particularly since I could find no real problem with the pistol, no mods, no repairs, all matching numbers, etc. So I slapped the gun back together, took it out back and function fired it and it shot like champ.
I surely do appreciate everything and my sincerest thanks to all for the time, effort and research everyone went to in finding a solution to this curious problem.

 

[rcmodel]

No, problem!

Thats what we try to do on here on THR.

It was a welcome learning experience for all of us.

(Or at least some of us!)

BTW: The Ortgies pistols have more then one unique or innovative design feature for the time.
This latest little quirk about the early ones doesn't surprise me a whole lot!

rc

 

[Speedo66]

I have seen an Ortgies slam fire, i.e., a round went off when the slide was released from it's stop and contacted a cartridge.

Don't know if that was limited to that one gun, or was a property of them in general, but I'd be extra careful if I came into contact with one now.

 

[Ron James]

If the safety is not engaged and if either one of those " legs" on the striker break or crack off the gun can fire in your pocket. The Ortgies also have a habit of going full auto if the small " interrupter " is worn. The grip safety ( which is the only safety on the gun ) is not designed to automatically pop back to safe when the grip is released ( Think grip safety of a 1911 ), it will remain in the fire position until you manually press the release button, which is also the take down button. If you carry a Ortgies chamber loaded in your pocket, if while fishing for change you happen to push in on the grip safety, you now have a possibility of a very nasty surprise. The Ortgies is a good example of the machinist art, but it is not a very good design, it has several flaws and never did sell well in it's native country, perhaps that is why they exported them in very large numbers to the US in the 1930's a beautifully made gun and well balanced, but flawed.

 

[Mike Dono]

Ortgies Emblem

Can anyone tell me where I can find an Ortgies emblem the one with the Cat in which the tail forms the right side of the D and has the remainder of the tail as a swirl on top. Thanks for any help that can be given.

Vr,

Mike D

 

[Ron James]

The only way you are going to find a Deutsch Werke grip coin is from a another set of grips. There are enough broken grips out there ( because people don't know how to remove the grips, so they force them off ), you might deep an eye on E-Bay.