1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Petals thru bone

Discussion in 'Handguns: General Discussion' started by 2zulu1, Aug 2, 2011.

  1. bruzer

    bruzer Well-Known Member

    Wow those expanded bullets look scary to me.
  2. CoRoMo

    CoRoMo Well-Known Member

    I wonder if soaking the bones in water for a day would change their consistency to the point of a measurable difference in a bullet's performance. Or maybe something other than water.
  3. 2zulu1

    2zulu1 Well-Known Member

    I've soaked them for weeks on end, they don't soften.

  4. 2zulu1

    2zulu1 Well-Known Member

    10mm leg bones

    Well, this morning's 10mm/180gr Nosler JHP was a bust. It doesn't appear the bullet expanded much in 3" of water, bullet hit edge of bone and deflected to the right and up, bullet was not recovered. The 1 gallon bottle opened up a little and there were no bone fragments inside. Basically, it's not worth my time to upload and post the pics. :(

    Okay, leg bonez :D are tough, really tough. 10mm, 200gr WFNGC (.320" meplat), 1200fps, from left to right;


    Backside of the 4" thick leg joint;


    For those who hike/camp in bear country and choose to carry a 10mm pistol instead of a .44mag, the 200gr WFNGC is about as good as it gets.

    A note on the 230gr WFNGC bullets/ammo from Double Tap; I weighed 10 bullets in a random sampling from a box of 100 bullets. There were some very serious QA issues ranging from a sporatic lack of lube in the lube grooves to bullet weights. The measured weights of all 10 bullets ranged from 221 grains to 223 grains.

    Another issue with DT's 230gr WFNGC is that the bullets don't stablize in factory Glock barrels causing them to keyhole about 20yds to 30 yards after leaving the barrel.

    Okay, with that out of the way; how did the 200gr XTP (1220fps) fair against a cow leg joint?

    The set-up;


    The leg joint fragged into a gazilion (technical word) pieces; :D


    After sorting through all the pieces of bone in the trough and on the ground; this is all that I could find of the bullet;


  5. 2zulu1

    2zulu1 Well-Known Member

    10mm 180gr GD steel+steel+cow bone

    While this morning's 10mm/180gr Nosler bone test was a flop; here's a test that went very, very well for the handloaded 10mm/180gr Gold Dot. Now that Double Tap ammunition no longer loads Gold Dot bullets, if one wants to carry a bonded bullet in 10mm, then it'll need to be handloaded.

    The set-up for this test was a double 1.5mm steel barrier plus a cow bone;


    Big bone, while not thick, very hard barrier; :D


    Muzzle velocity of the 180gr Gold Dot was 1267fps, expansion 0.582"


    Bullet held together (177.1grs), nice test;


    Baseline 4LD for the 10mm/180gr Gold Dot was;

    10mm 180 gr. Speer Gold Dot JHP v. 4 layers of denim
    Vi = 1267 feet per second
    Dr = 0.614 inch
    Mr= 178.3 grains

    Vc = 122.790 meters per second (402.855 feet per second)
    Mw = 58.041 grams (2.047 ounces)
    Xcm = 40.939 centimeters (16.118 inches)

    Increase the velocity to ~1300fps and faster and the GD can come apart with reduced penetration. Not all bullets will come apart at these fast velocities, but reliable expansion comes at lower velocities. From another baseline test at a slightly faster MV;

    Speer 10mm 180 gr. Gold Dot JHPImpact velocity: 1296 fps
    Recovered weight: 118.7 gr. (65.9%)
    Average recovered diameter: 0.565" (1.41x cal)

    Vcav = 414.791 fps
    Mw = 37.459 grams (1.321 ounces)
    Xcm = 33.350 cm (13.130 inches)

    In handloading the 10mm, one needs to remember that the bullets being loaded are designed for .40S&W velocities.

  6. 481

    481 Well-Known Member

    Using the equations provided here ( http://www.wbdg.org/ccb/DOD/UFC/ufc_4_023_07.pdf ) for determining the ballistic limit (V50) and residual velocity (Vr) against steel targets and the data provided above, it is possible to estimate the residual velocity of the exiting 10mm 180 gr. Gold Dot and get a good idea of its potential for penetration in soft tissue.

    Using two separate thicknesses of 1.5mm CRS panel having a BHN of ~149, the residual velocity of the Speer 10mm 180 gr. Gold Dot would be 820.931 feet per second assuming (immediate) expansion to full recovered diameter (0.582") upon impact with the first of the two 1.5mm CRS panels.

    Penetration depth and permanent wound cavity mass may then be predicted using the MacPherson model-

    Speer 10mm 180 gr. Gold Dot JHP v. two 1.5mm CRS panels

    Recovered Projectile Data:
    Recovered Diameter: 0.582" (1.455x caliber))
    Retained Mass: 177.1 gr.
    Impact Velocity: 1267 fps (Vr: 820.931 fps)

    Predicted Performance:
    Cavitation Regime Boundary (Vc) = 406.631 fps
    Permanent Wound Cavity Mass (Mw) = 45.467 grams (1.604 ounces)
    Penetration Depth (Xcm) = 36.143 cm (14.230 inches)

    I am not sure that there is an equation/algorithm that would permit an estimate/prediction of residual ballistic velocity through bone (much less dried up cow bone) and even if we had such an animal, I'd find it suspect under such circumstances.

    Thanks for the test, Bob.

    Last edited: Aug 4, 2011
  7. Creature

    Creature Well-Known Member

    Live bone is far different than old and dried bone.
  8. 2zulu1

    2zulu1 Well-Known Member

    ~14 inches of penetration after passing through 2 steel barriers is impressive. :D

    Thank you for running the equations. :)

  9. 481

    481 Well-Known Member

    You are welcome.

    The 10mm is good for getting through lots of "stuff" when lots of "stuff" gets in the way. :evil:
  10. Dr.Rob

    Dr.Rob Moderator Staff Member

    Wet bone or dry bone, shooting stuff is FUN. I'm really enjoying this thread.

    The information is well presented and the photography is VERY good.
  11. 481

    481 Well-Known Member

    Glad you're enjoying it. :)

    When it comes to breath-taking photography, Bob's got it all over me with those "Big Sky" backgrounds. I've got.....shrubbery. :scrutiny:
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2011
  12. 2zulu1

    2zulu1 Well-Known Member

    Glad you are enjoying the thread, hopefully we'll be able to share more tests in the future. May have to saddle a horse and look for more bones. :)

  13. orionengnr

    orionengnr Well-Known Member

    I am very pleased to see the results of the Ranger 127+p+ and Ranger 230+p tests, since those are the rounds that I have been carrying in my Kahr PM9 and my various 1911s for several years now.

    I have been thinking of moving to the HST, but at this point, I may delay that move for a while. Maybe a good while. :)
  14. pisc1024

    pisc1024 Well-Known Member

    Hey guys, cool tests... Where have I seen them before???? Hmm...:neener:
  15. Cop Bob

    Cop Bob Well-Known Member

    Thank you for running these tests and posting your results...Very enjoyable read..

    As for the comments about dry bone.. True enough.. can be overcome with a good long soaking, or going by the butcher shop and picking up some fresh.. It will not alter the results by much.. just in the interests of accuracy and fairness..

    Many years ago, we ran very similar tests after our Planning and Research Division read the FBI reports on the effectiveness of handgun ammunition. They came to the range, asked our opinion, and handed over some Federal Grant money and asked us if we could replicate and confirm.. was a fun time on the government dime...

    Good work... I KNOW you want to run more with different calibers and bullet options.. Keep us posted...
  16. 2zulu1

    2zulu1 Well-Known Member

    .38 Super

    It was Texas Ranger Frank Hamer who carried the .38 Super at the demise of Bonnie and Clyde and it was in his hand as the smoke cleared.


    So, reading the above post, let's enter another bone shattering caliber and see what it's capable of.

    Bullet selection, 124gr XTPs have an upper velocity limitation of high 1300s to low 1400s, this .355cal XTP came apart at 1436fps;


    An advantage of the .356cal Super is the ability to load it with .357 mag velocity bullets. Loading with a neutral powder, PMAX is lower than degressive handgun powders, yet the pressure area under the curve is the same between the two types of powders.

    This 125gr XTP had an MV of 1491fps (chamber pressure under 34,000psi) and it proved to be a very tough bullet.


    Very impressive baseline;

    .38 Super 125 gr. XTP JHPImpact velocity: 1491 fps (617fpe)
    Average recovered diameter: 0.546" (1.53x cal)

    Vcav = 419.069 fps
    Mw = 42.009 grams (1.482 ounces)
    Xcm = 39.030 cm (15.366 inches)

    What is this bullet capable of?


    A lot!


    True .357mag performance from a 1911 combined with faster split times than a G17. :D

  17. 481

    481 Well-Known Member

    Since many are constrained by "tight finances" these days, I try to shoot the "economy brand" JHPs whenever I get a chance since they are better than most people think. Often, they perform as well, and in some cases better, than the more recent (and more expensive) JHP designs.

    Regardless of caliber, I normally prefer "heavy-for-caliber" ammunition, but this stuff acquitted itself rather nicely in this test.




    Here is the MacPherson predictive analysis for this test:

    WinchesterUSA 9mm 115 gr. JHP (USA9JHP) v. four layers of 2 ounce cotton fabric

    Recovered Projectile Data:
    Average Recovered Diameter: 0.551 inch (1.555x caliber)
    Retained Mass: 115 grains
    Impact Velocity: 1172 feet per second

    Predicted Performance:
    Cavitation Regime Boundary (Vc) = 413.363 feet per second
    Permanent Wound Cavity Mass (Mw) = 35.909 grams (1.267 ounces)
    Penetration Depth (Xcm) = 32.451 centimeters (12.776 inches)

    Last edited: Aug 11, 2011
  18. Dr.Rob

    Dr.Rob Moderator Staff Member

    Good to see old 'white box' stood up to the test.

    That 38 super load was seriously impressive too.
  19. 481

    481 Well-Known Member


    The performance of the WinnyUSA stuff is always a pleasant surprise for me.

    Much of it used to be the old SuperX ammunition line and was used by LE through the 1990s (some places like Cinci PD are still fielding this stuff even though it is under the WWB label) until the need for better terminal performance was answered by the ammo manufacturers.

    I'll have a test for the WinUSA 9mm 147 gr. JHP posted pretty soon.

    As for the .38Super stuff, Bob just likes to "hotrod" whenever he can find an excuse to do so. It doesn't take much, mind you... :D
  20. Dr.Rob

    Dr.Rob Moderator Staff Member

    I still enjoy WW Silvertips in my 9mm. 115 gr rounds run hot in my BHP clone.

Share This Page