usmarine0352_2005
member
- Joined
- Oct 21, 2005
- Messages
- 2,796
For LEO:
Is there such a thing as an "INVESTIGATIVE STOP"???
Is there such a thing as an "INVESTIGATIVE STOP"???
Pulled over Ticket then Questioned?????
- Thread starter Dogmatix
- Start date
- Status
Hemicuda
member
even worse is the one TRUE stupid question that cops ask alot...
"Do you mind if I trample your rights into the ground?" AKA: "Do you mind if i search your vehicle?"
the ONLY correct answer to this question is: "no, i have no problem with you searching it, just as soon as you can state probable cause and come up with a valid warrant"... if they cite any reasons to search it without said warrant, then it is legal to surrender the keys, with it locked up, and then wait for or accompany said officer while he OBTAINS said warrant... but like heck they will EVER consentually search my vehicle...
as for the "why do you have a permit/carry a gun"... my standard answer is "becaue i can have a permit and a gun"... it's all they need to know...
and YES, both of these questions have been put to me by a LEO... and wer answered in exactly the way i stated...
the one for the search was followed by "what are you hiding"... answer to that... NOT A THING, i am just not allowing you to trample my rights, officer...
that officer DID call the prosecutor to try for a warrant... i told him that he should tell my mother hello for me while he had her on the phone... he did not find that funny, but the prosecutor really WAS my mom... she said she would ask for said warrant, but that the officer needed to state probable cause before she'd go about geting it... (she didn't know it was me who refused search yet)
I guess SOME poeple actually CONSENT to searches when asked....
"Do you mind if I trample your rights into the ground?" AKA: "Do you mind if i search your vehicle?"
the ONLY correct answer to this question is: "no, i have no problem with you searching it, just as soon as you can state probable cause and come up with a valid warrant"... if they cite any reasons to search it without said warrant, then it is legal to surrender the keys, with it locked up, and then wait for or accompany said officer while he OBTAINS said warrant... but like heck they will EVER consentually search my vehicle...
as for the "why do you have a permit/carry a gun"... my standard answer is "becaue i can have a permit and a gun"... it's all they need to know...
and YES, both of these questions have been put to me by a LEO... and wer answered in exactly the way i stated...
the one for the search was followed by "what are you hiding"... answer to that... NOT A THING, i am just not allowing you to trample my rights, officer...
that officer DID call the prosecutor to try for a warrant... i told him that he should tell my mother hello for me while he had her on the phone... he did not find that funny, but the prosecutor really WAS my mom... she said she would ask for said warrant, but that the officer needed to state probable cause before she'd go about geting it... (she didn't know it was me who refused search yet)
I guess SOME poeple actually CONSENT to searches when asked....
SASS#23149
Member
The cop was kind of a dufus for 'lighting you up' after the fact so to speak.that is the first thing he should have done for his own safety.
As to the 20.00 ticket....THEY STILL HAVE THOSE THINGS!!?? our tickets aroundher start at way over a hundred fifty bucks for ANYTHING.
Drive four blocks with no headlights on at 'dusk' and it's 265.00.
His questons as to why and what kind where rediculous and uncalled for.None of his business.period.
As to the 20.00 ticket....THEY STILL HAVE THOSE THINGS!!?? our tickets aroundher start at way over a hundred fifty bucks for ANYTHING.
Drive four blocks with no headlights on at 'dusk' and it's 265.00.
His questons as to why and what kind where rediculous and uncalled for.None of his business.period.
phoglund
Member
I think we have to keep perspective that DogMatix was the only one of us that was on the scene. We have to take his word for the demeanor of the officer during the stop. I also have a CWP in Montana and am a bit concerned with this story. Hopefully this was an isolated incident or not what it seemed to be to Dogmatix.
I'm not sure notifying an officer you are packing when he does not need or expect to be told is such a good idea. It might be perceived as a threat. I don't have a problem discussing with a law officer if I'm carrying, why I carry, nor what I'm packing but I don't think it's unreasonable to expect a little courtesy and respect from him/her during the conversation.
I'm not sure notifying an officer you are packing when he does not need or expect to be told is such a good idea. It might be perceived as a threat. I don't have a problem discussing with a law officer if I'm carrying, why I carry, nor what I'm packing but I don't think it's unreasonable to expect a little courtesy and respect from him/her during the conversation.
Aguila Blanca
Member
"So I can carry a gun."Dogmatix said:
"Because I can." or "Because this is a big state and, as you can see, this is a pretty empty road and my car might break down and leave me stuck out here."
Aguila Blanca
Member
Source, please?
In most states (and under Federal law) it is legal to tape record a telephone conversation with the consent of only one party to the conversation -- which can mean you record your own, or you can record a friend talking to some third party. Twelve states make it illegal to tape record a telephone conversation without the consent of both parties. I am not aware of any state that makes it illegal to tape record a face-to-face conversation, and certainly not an official transaction.
PlayboyPenguin
member
I know for a fact it is illegal in WV where I trained as an LEO and I know that it is also illegal in Oregon and Washington to tape conversations (live conversations, I think electronic communications fall under a different rule). We were video taping a neighbor we suspected of selling drugs at an old residence we owned and the judge told us we had to disable the sound on the camera if it could pick up their conversations or it could not be used in court. Also a guy in Utah that was putting video cameras in porta potties got off scott-free because he did not tape any sound. The judge said if the videos had included sound he would have been breaking the law.
mustanger98
Member
Something I learned in the public speaking class is that we all communicate through the filters of our own experience and/or preconceived opinions that come from stuff we've heard. What happened may be a case of honest questions mistaken for interrogation because of tone of voice. Or it could have been honest questions mistaken for interrogation because of a notion that cops are the enemy because people get picked on by a few cops. Or the cop may have been an egotistical idiot. Reading this online is no substitute for being an eyewitness, so we have no real way to know.
Something I've learned from being on these message boards is that the "us vs. them" mentality works both ways. I hear about cops thinking they're better than ordinary citizens or thinking anybody that don't wear a badge is a criminal. I also hear stuff from ordinary citizens like somebody said about "assume every cop you meet is a JBT". Not every cop carries that attitude and neither does every ordinary citizen. Nor should any of us. We're all supposed to be on the same side... the side of law and order... and decency and common courtesy.
As to the question of "who's the first guy you're gonna call...?", with attitudes like I'm reading in this thread it's a wonder there's any cops who'd help anybody any more. BTW, I'm a constituent of the sheriff here and the assistant DA's one of my shooting buddies and we also get to talking guns at lunchtime in the middle of the Mexican restraunt. I've not had a problem with local cops. Your (editorially, in the general sense) mileage seems to have already varied greatly. As far as if some bad guys kick my door in, they'll be under citizen's arrest- if they don't force me to use deadly force- and the first guy I'm calling is the sheriff followed by my buddy the assistant DA. If I also need a lawyer, I'll be calling one of my horse buddies who's a lawyer and a judge locally here.
If I had a cop try anything funny about interrogation like that, I think I'd try to de-escalate the situation. Saying something like "I didn't want to get you worked up over nothing" comes to mind since to my understanding, we're not required to declare a CCW weapon here. Plus, the answer that "it's better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it" seems to me like a pretty sensible reply. And the regulations say a permit holder can have a loaded sidearm anywhere in his/her vehicle, no problem. And as long as the sidearm is in a holster which may be covered by clothing, jacket, briefcase, etc. Or if it's in the glovebox, but the cops don't like 'em under the seat for some reason.
For a cop to ask "what are you carrying"... I don't see the problem. It sounds like he might just be curious, but the problem goes back to tone of voice and body language. Not everybody has the manner of a decent-to-good conversationalist. I know my sister says nobody can tell whether I'm kidding or serious when I make a joke and I'm not a LE/peace officer. My brother-in-law is an ex-cop and he runs his mouth sometimes too and I can't tell what he's thinking either. He and I and my sister know each other's armed too, and so far there's been no problem in that regard. But then, I haven't loaded my K98 with the Turkish magnum junk and handed it to him yet...
"Investigative stop"... that sounds to me like it lacks "probable cause".
Something I've learned from being on these message boards is that the "us vs. them" mentality works both ways. I hear about cops thinking they're better than ordinary citizens or thinking anybody that don't wear a badge is a criminal. I also hear stuff from ordinary citizens like somebody said about "assume every cop you meet is a JBT". Not every cop carries that attitude and neither does every ordinary citizen. Nor should any of us. We're all supposed to be on the same side... the side of law and order... and decency and common courtesy.
As to the question of "who's the first guy you're gonna call...?", with attitudes like I'm reading in this thread it's a wonder there's any cops who'd help anybody any more. BTW, I'm a constituent of the sheriff here and the assistant DA's one of my shooting buddies and we also get to talking guns at lunchtime in the middle of the Mexican restraunt. I've not had a problem with local cops. Your (editorially, in the general sense) mileage seems to have already varied greatly. As far as if some bad guys kick my door in, they'll be under citizen's arrest- if they don't force me to use deadly force- and the first guy I'm calling is the sheriff followed by my buddy the assistant DA. If I also need a lawyer, I'll be calling one of my horse buddies who's a lawyer and a judge locally here.
If I had a cop try anything funny about interrogation like that, I think I'd try to de-escalate the situation. Saying something like "I didn't want to get you worked up over nothing" comes to mind since to my understanding, we're not required to declare a CCW weapon here. Plus, the answer that "it's better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it" seems to me like a pretty sensible reply. And the regulations say a permit holder can have a loaded sidearm anywhere in his/her vehicle, no problem. And as long as the sidearm is in a holster which may be covered by clothing, jacket, briefcase, etc. Or if it's in the glovebox, but the cops don't like 'em under the seat for some reason.
For a cop to ask "what are you carrying"... I don't see the problem. It sounds like he might just be curious, but the problem goes back to tone of voice and body language. Not everybody has the manner of a decent-to-good conversationalist. I know my sister says nobody can tell whether I'm kidding or serious when I make a joke and I'm not a LE/peace officer. My brother-in-law is an ex-cop and he runs his mouth sometimes too and I can't tell what he's thinking either. He and I and my sister know each other's armed too, and so far there's been no problem in that regard. But then, I haven't loaded my K98 with the Turkish magnum junk and handed it to him yet...
"Investigative stop"... that sounds to me like it lacks "probable cause".
Bob R
Member
I presently live in Montana, have lived in WA, OK, and travel through ID a lot with a concealed weapon.
This whole thread would not have happened, and perhaps the ticket, if you get rid of the Us vs. Them attitude. I have been stopped in all 4 states by the highway patrol, and Spokane by the sheriff for minor traffic stops.
In each and every one, I have handed the LEO my concealed permit with my license, registeration and proof of insurance. In each and every stop, I asked what he would like me to do and was told to leave the pistol where it is.
I have yet to receive a ticket since I got my CCW, and made a practice of telling the LEO up front that I am carrying.
Even the time right after I got my Hemi Jeep and was testing to see if in fact it did have a electronic govenor. It does, at 110mph it stops. I couldn't believe it, and neither could the Highway Patrolman that stopped me. 330hp and then a limiter, what gives?
The point being, if you want respect, give respect.
If you want a ticket, and possibly a very long night, don't cooperate during a minor traffic stop.
Tha is my 2 cents worth, YMMV.
bob
This whole thread would not have happened, and perhaps the ticket, if you get rid of the Us vs. Them attitude. I have been stopped in all 4 states by the highway patrol, and Spokane by the sheriff for minor traffic stops.
In each and every one, I have handed the LEO my concealed permit with my license, registeration and proof of insurance. In each and every stop, I asked what he would like me to do and was told to leave the pistol where it is.
I have yet to receive a ticket since I got my CCW, and made a practice of telling the LEO up front that I am carrying.
Even the time right after I got my Hemi Jeep and was testing to see if in fact it did have a electronic govenor. It does, at 110mph it stops. I couldn't believe it, and neither could the Highway Patrolman that stopped me. 330hp and then a limiter, what gives?
The point being, if you want respect, give respect.
If you want a ticket, and possibly a very long night, don't cooperate during a minor traffic stop.
Tha is my 2 cents worth, YMMV.
bob
Zundfolge
Member
migoi, I think you missed my point completely. The moderators have removed the "quote" button to avoid people completely quoting others posts instead of the small part they are responding to. My snippet of a quote did not change the meaning of what you said so there's no intellectual dishonesty going on here. 
Anyway, my point is that if you say to a cop that you carry for the same reason he does, then what is likely going to go through his head is "I carry because I'm a duly sworn officer of the law, so this guy must be some sort of wannabe cop thinking he can run around thwarting criminals and saving damsels in distress just because he's got a gun."
We're talking about the misconceptions of a somewhat anti cop (and you don't throw a "why do you have a CCW?" in someone's face unless you're at least a little anti) we're talking about feeding his skewed view of "civilians" who CCW.
Anyway, my point is that if you say to a cop that you carry for the same reason he does, then what is likely going to go through his head is "I carry because I'm a duly sworn officer of the law, so this guy must be some sort of wannabe cop thinking he can run around thwarting criminals and saving damsels in distress just because he's got a gun."
We're talking about the misconceptions of a somewhat anti cop (and you don't throw a "why do you have a CCW?" in someone's face unless you're at least a little anti) we're talking about feeding his skewed view of "civilians" who CCW.
Tomekeuro85
Member
I can see why some of you don't like police. You give them attitude when they ask you something, and then they give you a hard time so you just dislike them more. Next time you get stopped you give more attitude and get even more trouble. If you had cooperated in the first place, shown respect and gave no attitude, it is far more likely you would have just gotten off with a warning. (I'm not saying this to the thread starter just people in general). Secondly, why do you even get pulled over? Speed limits and traffic laws exist for a reason. I have been driving for 5 years and I have never even been pulled over a single time. I have talked to officers on the street, and for some reason I have never seen this type of attitude from them because I cooperate and answer what I am asked.
And don't give any BS about calling your lawyer first when your house gets burglarized when you're not home. Your lawyer isn't going to solve a crime. My intention with that post was to say that people hate the police so much, but they expect the police to help them IMMEDIATELY when there is trouble.
And don't give any BS about calling your lawyer first when your house gets burglarized when you're not home. Your lawyer isn't going to solve a crime. My intention with that post was to say that people hate the police so much, but they expect the police to help them IMMEDIATELY when there is trouble.
Taurus 66
Member
Excuse me for one moment, but I must temporarily hijack the thread to ask this: Aren't Montana's speed limits basically what's "Reasonable and Prudent"? You were how many miles per hour over the "supposed" speed limit? Not that much for a MT officer to be concerned.
I like usmarine's answer. It's answering a question with a question and a straight forward, calm, cool approach. It's knowing what you should say before you have to say it.
I like usmarine's answer. It's answering a question with a question and a straight forward, calm, cool approach. It's knowing what you should say before you have to say it.
Tomekeuro85
Member
SASS, you say it's none of the officers business. Period. To ask you questions. Have you never been at the range and asked someone where they got a specific gun? Or why they like it? Same principle appies, cops are people too, can't they be curious and/or make conversation?
Bob R
Member
Only from 1995 to May 28, 1999 ( a very sad day). Our speed limit on the interstate is now 75mph.
bob
Tomekeuro85
Member
Bob R- Good points above, If you want respect, give respect. A cop can give you a very hard time if he wants. You wont win against him. Its like pissing into the wind. The sooner you realize it, the better off you'll be.
MTMilitiaman
Member
Bob, normally I would agree with you. But I've had several run-ins with the Bozeman City Police and in each and every one, they brought the " Us v. Them" attitude and forced me to deal with it.
As for this particular officer, I wasn't there, but anytime someone starts drilling me for exercising one of my rights, and directly inquires as to why I carry a firearm, that suggests a certain amount of distrust. Distrust by default makes it "us v. them." So if a cop doesn't want an "us v. them" attitude, it seems reasonable to expect them not to bring such an attitude themselves.
As for the patrol man's questions, asking if you're presently carrying seems reasonable from his point of view and if he can ask in a courteous manner, I wouldn't mind disclosing to him whether or not I was strapped. But I wouldn't volunteer the information cause that kind of defeats the purpose to me. Besides, like someone mentioned, you can have a weapon in your vehicle at any time without a permit. Asking what you are carrying--well that is none of his business but I would probably tell him just cause I take a certain amount of pride in my hardware. "Glock 20, sir." If he doesn't know what that is, let him research it on someone else's time. The thing that would really piss me off is asking why I am packing. That is none of his business and I think I would really have to know why it interested him.
As for this particular officer, I wasn't there, but anytime someone starts drilling me for exercising one of my rights, and directly inquires as to why I carry a firearm, that suggests a certain amount of distrust. Distrust by default makes it "us v. them." So if a cop doesn't want an "us v. them" attitude, it seems reasonable to expect them not to bring such an attitude themselves.
As for the patrol man's questions, asking if you're presently carrying seems reasonable from his point of view and if he can ask in a courteous manner, I wouldn't mind disclosing to him whether or not I was strapped. But I wouldn't volunteer the information cause that kind of defeats the purpose to me. Besides, like someone mentioned, you can have a weapon in your vehicle at any time without a permit. Asking what you are carrying--well that is none of his business but I would probably tell him just cause I take a certain amount of pride in my hardware. "Glock 20, sir." If he doesn't know what that is, let him research it on someone else's time. The thing that would really piss me off is asking why I am packing. That is none of his business and I think I would really have to know why it interested him.
Zen21Tao
Member
Every time I have been pulled over (yes I sometimes have a lead foot) I inform the officer of my CCW. Each time I have been treated very well usually getting only warnings of cheaper nominal tickets with no points and only a few $$. A few times I have had officers ask about my firearms out of their own interest. For example, "how does a single compare to a double stack IWB." I don't know why the bright lights but if he wasn't rude, intemidating or threatening then I wouldn't sweat it.
Warren
Member
The question :"Why do you (or as it is sometimes said -you-) have a gun?" Is a very rude and Unamerican question out of anyone.
The questioner has a mindset that is just wrong. That said why risk pissing off a cop?
I've not been stopped since I got my CHL (since, oddly the very first day I went out armed I found myself almost unable to violate traffic laws) and Cali has no duty to inform but if it came up somehow and the cop asked me WDYHAG I would reply with a happy and upbeat "Why not?" That puts him in the position of explaining his mindset to me rather than the other way round.
The questioner has a mindset that is just wrong. That said why risk pissing off a cop?
I've not been stopped since I got my CHL (since, oddly the very first day I went out armed I found myself almost unable to violate traffic laws) and Cali has no duty to inform but if it came up somehow and the cop asked me WDYHAG I would reply with a happy and upbeat "Why not?" That puts him in the position of explaining his mindset to me rather than the other way round.
MAURICE
Member
I got pulled over tonight because a headlight went out the other day. I actually bought the new bulbs this evening not long before being pulled over.
Told the nice, attractive, female officer I work for the state Dept of Correction (we are not police officers, though), plus had a CCW. I never have been pulled over while carrying, and even though I am in Law Enforcement, I was not sure what to expect.
She didnt even flinch. It seemed like it was a non issue to her as she didnt ask where it was or ask to secure it either.
Got my Contact Form and was sent on my way.
I am not going to get in the whole us v them debate, but please remember, cops are regular people with an irregular job. They will cut you some slack if you cut them some slack. No need to tell a cop "f off".
Sorry for your bad luck.
Told the nice, attractive, female officer I work for the state Dept of Correction (we are not police officers, though), plus had a CCW. I never have been pulled over while carrying, and even though I am in Law Enforcement, I was not sure what to expect.
She didnt even flinch. It seemed like it was a non issue to her as she didnt ask where it was or ask to secure it either.
Got my Contact Form and was sent on my way.
I am not going to get in the whole us v them debate, but please remember, cops are regular people with an irregular job. They will cut you some slack if you cut them some slack. No need to tell a cop "f off".
Sorry for your bad luck.
CajunBass
Member
I got stopped about a week ago. In Virginia there is no requirement to inform, but it will come up when the officer runs your drivers license. I had my XD on the front seat. Open carry is legal in Virginia. I handed the officer my DL and my CHP, and told him, "You don't really need this but I'll give it to you anyway. If I was on the other side of that door, I'd appreciate it." He glanced at it, handed it back and said "Thank you." End of that part of the discussion. To tell you the truth, I don't believe he even saw the gun on the seat. If he did, he didn't pay any attention to it.
He explained why he stopped me. I explained my understanding of the situation. No ticket, not even a warning really, just explaining what was wrong. I thanked him. He thanked me. We both went on about our business.
He explained why he stopped me. I explained my understanding of the situation. No ticket, not even a warning really, just explaining what was wrong. I thanked him. He thanked me. We both went on about our business.
ezypikns
Member
In Texas you MUST inform the LEO if you have a CHL
We were told in our licensing class that the law requires (in TEXAS) that when you hand over your DL, you'd BETTER also hand over your CHL. It doesn't matter if you're actually carrying or not. If the LEO pulls up your DL no., it will automatically tell him you have a license to carry. Why would a law abiding citizen NOT inform him. We were told to always have our CHL if we had our DL on us.
Sounds as if the officer was overly inquisitive but polite. I have been stopped before and since I received my license. I have always been treated politely. Mainly because I always treat the officer politely.
I know there are buttheads everywhere, even on our police forces. They have the law on their side automatically, and they also carry a gun. Generally it's our word against theirs.
Until I win the lottery and have unlimited time, money, and a full time legal staff, I'm going continue to treat LEO's with the respect I believe they deserve. I really have no desire to appear on an episode of "COPS".
We were told in our licensing class that the law requires (in TEXAS) that when you hand over your DL, you'd BETTER also hand over your CHL. It doesn't matter if you're actually carrying or not. If the LEO pulls up your DL no., it will automatically tell him you have a license to carry. Why would a law abiding citizen NOT inform him. We were told to always have our CHL if we had our DL on us.
Sounds as if the officer was overly inquisitive but polite. I have been stopped before and since I received my license. I have always been treated politely. Mainly because I always treat the officer politely.
I know there are buttheads everywhere, even on our police forces. They have the law on their side automatically, and they also carry a gun. Generally it's our word against theirs.
Until I win the lottery and have unlimited time, money, and a full time legal staff, I'm going continue to treat LEO's with the respect I believe they deserve. I really have no desire to appear on an episode of "COPS".
Monkeybear
Member
- Joined
- Jan 27, 2006
- Messages
- 1,178
Hes a cop. His life is on the line everyday and hes got to put up with crap from cop haters every day. If he turned all his lights on it was likely so that he see you better, a valid precaution when you know you are dealing wtih someone who is armed. IMO be repectful and just answer their questions about your CCW and youll be fine. From what I have been told a CCW is not the the special ability to carry a hidden firearm but rather license to carry a firearm on condition that it is consealed.
gunsmith
member
I don't understand the hoopla
the one time since getting my ccw I was asked for my license I also gave up my CCW license...
We ended up talking about how much better AZ is over CA.
Showlow AZ PD, stand up guys in my opinion.
the one time since getting my ccw I was asked for my license I also gave up my CCW license...
We ended up talking about how much better AZ is over CA.
Showlow AZ PD, stand up guys in my opinion.
Of course. However, that does not seem to be what happened here.
Example of an investigative stop:
You get word of a bank robbery on Main Street, the suspects have just left northbound in a green Chevy Lumina. As you pull up to the intersection of Main and Elm (which is 5 blocks north of the bank), you see a green Chevy Lumina driving northbound on Main St, obeying all traffic laws.
Do you have probable cause to pull the car over, yank out the driver, cuff him and throw him in jail for bank robbery?
Heck no.
Do you have enough reasonable articulable suspicion to stop the car, make contact with the driver, detain him at the point of stop until someone can get with the witnesses at the bank and get everything sorted out?
Of course you do. That is an investigative stop, or investigative detention.
Mike
You should have advised, required or not
The man cut you a break, why not cut him a break, right? In MI, they could have and probably would have taken your MCPL (CCW) for that lapse. First offense is 6 months loss and I think $500.00 fine (I think that is the penalty). My final point, this guy is doing a thankless job; I wouldn't want it. The CCW instructor I had was the county S.W.A.T. director. He told us ANYTIME you get pulled over, carrying or not carrying, ALWAYS flash you MCPL (CCW) because most police believe (as stated here by an other post) that if you've lived a good enough life to have a MCPL, you deserve a "break".
Want to bet that if you had disclosed the CCW, you would NOT have been ticketed at all.
Doc2005
The man cut you a break, why not cut him a break, right? In MI, they could have and probably would have taken your MCPL (CCW) for that lapse. First offense is 6 months loss and I think $500.00 fine (I think that is the penalty). My final point, this guy is doing a thankless job; I wouldn't want it. The CCW instructor I had was the county S.W.A.T. director. He told us ANYTIME you get pulled over, carrying or not carrying, ALWAYS flash you MCPL (CCW) because most police believe (as stated here by an other post) that if you've lived a good enough life to have a MCPL, you deserve a "break".
Want to bet that if you had disclosed the CCW, you would NOT have been ticketed at all.
Doc2005
- Status
