Ranges & Gun Shows: No Loaded Weapons!
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AKElroy
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The arguments I find most compelling are the ones referencing the frequency that guns are handled at gun shows and the LGS. As a Range Master for a buddies CHL course, NO ONE handles a gun behind a line when it is hot. I have made a few folks angry when enforcing this basic rule, with the same comment made every time. "What's the big deal? It's not even loaded". Of course it isn't. No ND's ever occur with a loaded gun.
If I ran a gun show or store, these rules would be the same. No loaded weapons. Too many hands, too many dry-fires, too many actors to watch. Since I cannot control the variables like I can on the line, patrons will be unarmed when handling weapons in my shop( if I had one). If folks don't like the rules, that's OK. They can take a class or buy from someone else.
If I ran a gun show or store, these rules would be the same. No loaded weapons. Too many hands, too many dry-fires, too many actors to watch. Since I cannot control the variables like I can on the line, patrons will be unarmed when handling weapons in my shop( if I had one). If folks don't like the rules, that's OK. They can take a class or buy from someone else.
AKElroy
Member
As a follow-up to my last post, I do not find any hypocrisy in this argument. I carry concealed every day. I hope others do as well, and I hope their weapons are loaded, and I hope they are prepared and capable to employ them if needed. That said, if one of them were to take out their weapon and start handling it in public, aiming, working the action, dry firing, etc..., I would hope, and in fact require, that they unload the weapon in my presence.
AZ Desertrat
Member
As much as I dislike those kinds of regs and rules...I believe there is a good reason for it. Hypocritical? yes....but then, I don't want to get "shot at a gunshow" anymore than the next guy.
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
As another poster likes to point out, nuance is important.
We SHOULD carry a loaded, ready, weapon at all times. There SHOULD be NO prohibitions against that.
But there are mitigating circumstances under which we all recognize that our need to be armed should be set aside momentarily for some reason. Maybe I'm getting an MRI scan? Maybe I'm swimming in the ocean? Maybe I'm visiting a courtroom or prison? We'd all say, "well sure, ok, not carrying then."
A gun show or gun range asking you to not have (openly carried
) loaded weapons in that weapons-handling environment is simply another minor nuance. They aren't infringing your rights, aren't being hypocritical, just making a proactive step to ensure we all are protected by "layers of safety" -- even when some of those layers are difficult to maintain due to the special circumstances.
We SHOULD carry a loaded, ready, weapon at all times. There SHOULD be NO prohibitions against that.
But there are mitigating circumstances under which we all recognize that our need to be armed should be set aside momentarily for some reason. Maybe I'm getting an MRI scan? Maybe I'm swimming in the ocean? Maybe I'm visiting a courtroom or prison? We'd all say, "well sure, ok, not carrying then."
A gun show or gun range asking you to not have (openly carried
) loaded weapons in that weapons-handling environment is simply another minor nuance. They aren't infringing your rights, aren't being hypocritical, just making a proactive step to ensure we all are protected by "layers of safety" -- even when some of those layers are difficult to maintain due to the special circumstances.
coloradokevin
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I agree completely, as I stated in my previous post. Whenever you are putting a bunch of unknown people in a room with the express intention of having them handle, trade, sell, and buy guns it's a really good idea to take some steps to make sure that the guns are not loaded. As such, the policy usually dictates that someone checks the gun at the door, and zip-ties it to make sure it isn't loaded. That way, when some fool walks in with a loaded .30-06 that he's looking to sell, and hands it to a novice who is looking to buy their first gun, and tells that "hey, it ain't loaded", and the novice who doesn't know to check the chamber pulls the trigger, no one ends up getting accidentally shot. It's reality, and it has happened in the past.
Should people be better about handling guns more safely? Absolutely! But, we have the same unloaded/no ammo requirements on our police range during certain training scenarios, because when you put enough people together in such an environment, enough times, eventually someone is going to make a mistake.
It's totally different when we're on the street with our guns, or carrying CCW on our time off. We don't expect that we'll handle our guns in that situation, unless needed for the preservation of life. In a training / gun show environment we are planning to handle our guns, which raises the risk of accident.
I often talk guns with friends and relatives, and people I know will often ask to take a look at one of my rifles/handguns when they're at my house. If we're going to be handling the gun for "show and tell" time it always gets unloaded first (by me), and brought into the room without the ammo.
Anyway, like you I've found that the easiest thing to do at a gun show is continue to wear my CCW piece, and make sure that no one knows it's there… I also don't touch it during the event, and it doesn't leave its holster for any reason (the need for self defense not withstanding).
Theohazard
Member
You've obviously never worked in a gun store.shafter said:
AKElroy
Member
I haven't, but I can sure think up scenarios that could result in tragedy. How's this: customer walks into LGS, asks to see a gun that he decides he must have. He can't afford it,so he wants to talk trade for his EDC, which he proceeds to pull out of his pocket. The clerk, distracted by other customers, reaches for the loaded EDC, sets it on the counter until he finishes up with a customer. A third customer, curious about the gun on the counter and assuming it is for sale, picks up the weapon and gives the trigger a try. Bang.
If you have never been to a large gun show, it might be difficult to imagine this happening. I've been to dozens, I'm shocked it doesn't happen more often, even with the rules. Dozens of people at every table, handling guns, with the worst possible gun manners. Loaded EDC's in a trade-heavy environment? No thanks. Not looking for legislation on this, folks. Just good common sense.
I believe if I witnessed someone in any setting where they were HANDLING firearms, I would either insist they show me they are unloaded, or me and mine would be leaving the area. I have done this, and will continue to. I recently had the 16 year-old kid of one of our hunters carrying his AR in a sling, index finger at ready-1 as if we faced imminent invasion, muzzle brushing everyone as he walked about. I asked him to clear the weapon or put it away. His dad interceded and told him to put it away.
Common sense needs to prevail here. Again, I would oppose legislating any of this, but rules and safety go hand in hand.
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X-Rap
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I think that sums it up nicely. Why are people protesting the self regulation of the industry with out the heavy hand of government?
Aside from a few examples I haven't seen or heard of an instance in which concealed or open carry has been prohibited in a GS, it's the unwarranted removal of said gun that is forbidden as it should be.
The gunshow is much the same, I cc at every show I visit or partake in. It never comes out and so long as prohibition doesn't carry the force of law that's how I will continue.
As for range and comp. Again there are many guns in action and just as many being cleaned, repaired, and inspected at any given time that allowing for loaded (non cc) guns to be carried by spectators or participants not actively competing is a recipe for disaster.
Theohazard
Member
This hits the nail on the head. Some folks are saying we're being hypocritical because we're being just like the antis, and those people are just plain wrong. The antis' goal is for more anti-gun legislation, but who here is talking about legislation? No, we're simply saying that a private company should be able to make rules to improve safety and/or minimize liability inside their establishment. And if you don't like those rules, then go somewhere else.AKElroy said:
Willie Sutton
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"If gun stores/shows can't expect people to behave safely then why should anyone else?"
You haven't looked at the folks to the right or left of you at the gunshop lately, have you? Try it, it usually makes the patrons at Walmart seem like rocket scientists.
Trust me... I don't want to be anywhere near many of them if they have a loaded gun.
Willie
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You haven't looked at the folks to the right or left of you at the gunshop lately, have you? Try it, it usually makes the patrons at Walmart seem like rocket scientists.
Trust me... I don't want to be anywhere near many of them if they have a loaded gun.
Willie
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Stevie-Ray
Member
In our previous area, the norm was inspect, unload and zip-tie the carry guns at a gun show, and signs in local gun shops demanding cased unloaded firearms with the caveat, licensed CCWs always welcome. Now, the gun shops are the same, but the gun shows have no inspections. Same state-more rural area.
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
Layers of Safety
In all gun activities we preach the idea of having LAYERS OF SAFETY.
Cooper's Four Rules are really just a simple way of expressing the most universal of those layers:
1) Treat all guns as always loaded.
2) Never let the muzzle cover anything you are not willing to destroy.
3) Keep your finger off the trigger till your sights are on the target.
4) Identify your target, and what is behind it.
We know that when we are plinking at the range, or carrying our guns with us throughout our day, or hunting, etc., those four rules provide four layers of safety that overlap to protect us and others. Any one of them could keep us from a terrible accident but if we're trying to practice all four -- no matter how things go haywire -- there should be at least two or three layers in place keeping us from a dire WHOOPS.
There are times, however, when several of THOSE four rules get pretty badly bent. Like, for instance, when cleaning a gun, or when dryfiring, or when handling a gun at a safe area during a match, or ...
... Or when at a gun show (or shop).
During those times you're handling the guns, manipulating them to check or test the action, pointing them at things you are NOT willing to destroy (if only the clock on the wall, or "CRAP, why'd that guy just walk in front of my muzzle? Didn't he see me shouldering this rifle over here?"), pulling the trigger to check the action job or in dryfire practice, pointing at things you really haven't checked as a target nor verified what might be behind it that you MUST not shoot, cleaning that Model 94 from the muzzle end or getting your hands in front of the muzzle of your 1911 when putting the bushing back in... And so forth.
Fortunately, Cooper's rules are not the ONLY rules that we can use to layer up the safety. We can also use special circumstance rules like NO AMMO/NO LOADED WEAPONS to create an alternate layer of safety to cover us when the original four are hard or impossible to perfectly maintain.
And if we could stop to recognize that, we wouldn't hear the inane calls of "hypocrisy" and nonsensical ramblings about "if they can't trust us in a gun show, why should they trust us walking down the street with a holstered gun?"
We sound a bit like someone who claims to always tell the truth. Without understanding nuance and practicing situational discretion, that well-intentioned fool is not likely to remain married -- OR employed! -- for very long.
In all gun activities we preach the idea of having LAYERS OF SAFETY.
Cooper's Four Rules are really just a simple way of expressing the most universal of those layers:
1) Treat all guns as always loaded.
2) Never let the muzzle cover anything you are not willing to destroy.
3) Keep your finger off the trigger till your sights are on the target.
4) Identify your target, and what is behind it.
We know that when we are plinking at the range, or carrying our guns with us throughout our day, or hunting, etc., those four rules provide four layers of safety that overlap to protect us and others. Any one of them could keep us from a terrible accident but if we're trying to practice all four -- no matter how things go haywire -- there should be at least two or three layers in place keeping us from a dire WHOOPS.
There are times, however, when several of THOSE four rules get pretty badly bent. Like, for instance, when cleaning a gun, or when dryfiring, or when handling a gun at a safe area during a match, or ...
... Or when at a gun show (or shop).
During those times you're handling the guns, manipulating them to check or test the action, pointing them at things you are NOT willing to destroy (if only the clock on the wall, or "CRAP, why'd that guy just walk in front of my muzzle? Didn't he see me shouldering this rifle over here?"), pulling the trigger to check the action job or in dryfire practice, pointing at things you really haven't checked as a target nor verified what might be behind it that you MUST not shoot, cleaning that Model 94 from the muzzle end or getting your hands in front of the muzzle of your 1911 when putting the bushing back in... And so forth.
Fortunately, Cooper's rules are not the ONLY rules that we can use to layer up the safety. We can also use special circumstance rules like NO AMMO/NO LOADED WEAPONS to create an alternate layer of safety to cover us when the original four are hard or impossible to perfectly maintain.
And if we could stop to recognize that, we wouldn't hear the inane calls of "hypocrisy" and nonsensical ramblings about "if they can't trust us in a gun show, why should they trust us walking down the street with a holstered gun?"
We sound a bit like someone who claims to always tell the truth. Without understanding nuance and practicing situational discretion, that well-intentioned fool is not likely to remain married -- OR employed! -- for very long.
RetiredUSNChief
Member
Therein lies the problem...everybody can think up scenarios that could result in tragedy, no matter WHAT the circumstances.
Private business owners deal with such issues however THEY choose to deal with them. It is not our place to gainsay them in their own businesses. Just as it's not anybody else's place to gainsay OUR decisions in matters of our own businesses or homes.
In the context of a gun shop, how the owners decide to mitigate the potential risks involved with handling firearms is THEIR business. And like most everything else in life, you'll see a broad spectrum of different ways of handling such risks. I've been in gun shops where they had signs intentionally welcoming those who carried legally. I've been in gun shops where it was quite plainly posted with "no concealed weapons" signs. And I've been in gun shops where nothing at all was said on the matter.
As one of the moderators on THR has been known to post, "Is gun. Gun not safe." If, knowing and understanding this, a gun shop owner chooses NOT to allow other people to carry loaded weapons in his store as part of his risk mitigation plan in a store chock full of dangerous weapons which will be handled, then who are we to gainsay that? We have the choice to patronize his business or not as we each see fit.
Besides...unlike schools and other places of business in which guns are off limits, the one thing I've NEVER seen is a gun shop without armed employees at the ready. "Gun free zone" does NOT describe any gun shop I've ever been in.
"You would probably be amazed at the number of folks who think its okay to show off their carry gun because they're in a gun store."
I have worked in gun shops, clubs, and ranges since 1967. Most folks posting here don't have a clue what they are talking about.
I can't tell you how many folks have chirped "I KNOW what I'm doing", right after they pointed a firearm at me.
As an employee, I have the right to expect a safe workplace, even at a gun range. After all these years, I still love the gun culture, and being around folks with guns.
Remember the 49%. Make sure you don't act like them.
At our shop a while back, a uniformed LEO repeatedly drew his carry arm and pointed it at an employee. Several other employees told him if he did it again, they would point their guns at HIM. Needless to say, he left in a rage.
Idiots can't keep their carry gun in their pants. They HAVE to play show and tell like a 12 year old.
Hang around a busy gun shop or range, and be educated. While on the job, I once had to forcibly disarm a fool who repeatedly pointed his handgun at me.
If I had not been at contact distance, I can't say I would not have shot him.
"Draw your gun, go to jail" is a good idea, even at a gun shop.
If you are going to sell, trade, buy goodies for, or have your firearm repaired, PLEASE bring it in empty and cased.
I have worked in gun shops, clubs, and ranges since 1967. Most folks posting here don't have a clue what they are talking about.
I can't tell you how many folks have chirped "I KNOW what I'm doing", right after they pointed a firearm at me.
As an employee, I have the right to expect a safe workplace, even at a gun range. After all these years, I still love the gun culture, and being around folks with guns.
Remember the 49%. Make sure you don't act like them.
At our shop a while back, a uniformed LEO repeatedly drew his carry arm and pointed it at an employee. Several other employees told him if he did it again, they would point their guns at HIM. Needless to say, he left in a rage.
Idiots can't keep their carry gun in their pants. They HAVE to play show and tell like a 12 year old.
Hang around a busy gun shop or range, and be educated. While on the job, I once had to forcibly disarm a fool who repeatedly pointed his handgun at me.
If I had not been at contact distance, I can't say I would not have shot him.
"Draw your gun, go to jail" is a good idea, even at a gun shop.
If you are going to sell, trade, buy goodies for, or have your firearm repaired, PLEASE bring it in empty and cased.
It does not take much searching to find web accounts of accidental discharges at Gun Shows.
My city used to have big gun shows at the Civic Center. More than ten years ago a guy bought an 9mm semi auto at the gun show with ammunition and magazines. When he left the arena, but was on the walk way inside the Civic Center, he loaded a magazine, put it into the pistol, and then cut the cable tie. Somehow the interaction of the cable tie with the trigger was enough to cause a discharge, which went through the purchaser’s lower spine. He now is paralyzed from the waist down. This occurred in full public view and was enough of a scandal that this large “public” space has not been available for a gun show for a decade or two.
My city used to have big gun shows at the Civic Center. More than ten years ago a guy bought an 9mm semi auto at the gun show with ammunition and magazines. When he left the arena, but was on the walk way inside the Civic Center, he loaded a magazine, put it into the pistol, and then cut the cable tie. Somehow the interaction of the cable tie with the trigger was enough to cause a discharge, which went through the purchaser’s lower spine. He now is paralyzed from the waist down. This occurred in full public view and was enough of a scandal that this large “public” space has not been available for a gun show for a decade or two.
RetiredUSNChief
Member
Darned good advice.
A carry gun is a carry gun. Its purpose is to be on one's person and available for use in an emergency, not for any other reason. Pulling it out of one's holster for any other reason should be avoided, if at all possible, and minimized if not possible.
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herrwalther
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john wall said:
That is what I do. If I am selling a firearm I bring it in the case it came with (if it did) otherwise I bring it in one of my own. In addition I use whatever "I swear I am not loaded" plugs or doohickies I have to put the gun shop at ease a little bit. I know they are going to check it anyway but I like doing my little part to make someone's job easier.
One local range doesn't mind ccw, but it has to remain in a ccw status while there and you shoot whatever else you have. If you wanna shoot the ccw, just clear it prior to entry and put it in the range bag or whatever.
Another local range doesn't mind if you practice drawing there. Once they know you, and realize that you are not a knucklehead, they don't mind. They just ask that the other lanes be clear of other people.
It really comes down to minimizing the risk that occurs from a lot of people handling loaded weapons in a small space. Accidents do happen, and ND's happen when handling weapons. I'f a lot of people are doing this in a 'small space', then the risk goes up. Rules like this are simply meant to minimize that risk.
Another local range doesn't mind if you practice drawing there. Once they know you, and realize that you are not a knucklehead, they don't mind. They just ask that the other lanes be clear of other people.
It really comes down to minimizing the risk that occurs from a lot of people handling loaded weapons in a small space. Accidents do happen, and ND's happen when handling weapons. I'f a lot of people are doing this in a 'small space', then the risk goes up. Rules like this are simply meant to minimize that risk.
Zach S
Member
John Wall, '67 huh? How do you keep your blood pressure down? My time behind the counter and pacing behind the firing line is limited - and while I dont mind helping out, I prefer to keep it that way.
I think a lot of you need to work in a gun store for about a month. You'll understand why places are charging $50 for transfers, the clerks check the gun then hand it to you with the action closed, and eventually, if there isnt a dreaded sign, the sound of a live round hitting the floor, right after the sound of a slide racking will get old. Not to mention the occasional round getting ejected from the "unloaded" gun being brought in for work. You will have a counterstory from the selling side of the counter for over half of the gun store complaints you read here.
You want nerve racking? Wait till you hear someone say "it didnt go off" and start to turn around to ask the acting RSO (you) for help, gun in hand, and have it fire twice (once for the hangfire, again with the flinch).
Most of us know better than to show up expecting our transfer because tracking said it was delivered 20 min ago. We know that slamming slides and hollywood flips are bad ideas, carry guns aren't for show and tell, and to unload our guns before putting them in the case. Not to mention the click where there should be a bang. I heard about one guy who brought his gun back into the storek thankfully it was a dud, not a hangfire, and I wasn't there.
At the end of the day, we're not remembered - the other ones are. Rip them for the sign, there is probably a story behind it, ask the owner. It may involve a Spyderco and WileyX display getting shot by one of the "I know what I'm doing/its unloaded/check out my carry gun" crowd.
I think a lot of you need to work in a gun store for about a month. You'll understand why places are charging $50 for transfers, the clerks check the gun then hand it to you with the action closed, and eventually, if there isnt a dreaded sign, the sound of a live round hitting the floor, right after the sound of a slide racking will get old. Not to mention the occasional round getting ejected from the "unloaded" gun being brought in for work. You will have a counterstory from the selling side of the counter for over half of the gun store complaints you read here.
You want nerve racking? Wait till you hear someone say "it didnt go off" and start to turn around to ask the acting RSO (you) for help, gun in hand, and have it fire twice (once for the hangfire, again with the flinch).
Most of us know better than to show up expecting our transfer because tracking said it was delivered 20 min ago. We know that slamming slides and hollywood flips are bad ideas, carry guns aren't for show and tell, and to unload our guns before putting them in the case. Not to mention the click where there should be a bang. I heard about one guy who brought his gun back into the storek thankfully it was a dud, not a hangfire, and I wasn't there.
At the end of the day, we're not remembered - the other ones are. Rip them for the sign, there is probably a story behind it, ask the owner. It may involve a Spyderco and WileyX display getting shot by one of the "I know what I'm doing/its unloaded/check out my carry gun" crowd.
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