Rethinking the 7.62x39mm

[buck00]

I am starting to think that for general purpose SHTF close in work, ther M43 round may be the better pick than the 5.56, if using expanding ammo.

You are on the right track. Next step is to get a nice AK-47.

I own an AK-74 clone in 5.45 x 39, an M1A in .308, and an AK-47 clone in 7.62 x 39. If there was a major civil crisis (SHTF) or a large group of thugs attempting a home invasion- I'd grab my AK-47 first, hands-down without hesistation and never look back.

In my own opinion, if there was a serious situation- softpoint, JHP, or FMJ wouldn't really matter on the ground- just shot placement and volume of fire.

Good luck.

 

[Marlin 45 carbine]

Wow, they're all bunched up, good time to open up with a couple 12 ga. 3" magnums w/000 buck on 'em!

 

[AR Hammer]

I spent a lot of time at testing firearms when I was in the military, and I don't agree with the base conclusions.

The 7.62x39mm round is a good stopper at short and medium ranges.
It isn't an accurate round, and it's too underpowered for long range.
Ranges out to about 300 yards it does just fine, and it does a lot of damage.

It has the added benefit of being a run of the mill .30 cal. round so you can easily hand load any specialty rounds you might need.
Hot loads, hollow points, or what ever.

That's the beauty of shooting .30 cal... Same bullets/primers/powders for .300 mags, .30-06, .30-30, .308 ect....
-----------------

The .223 isn't a stopper.
It's good for small 'varmint' type animals, and some larger, thin skinned game animals, but I certainly wouldn't call it a 'Power House' round, and you are an idiot if you hunt dangerous game with a .223 rifle.
(I'd pay to see someone hunt Kodiak or Alaskan Grizzly with a .223 rifle!)

It is pin point accurate, reaches out accurately to intermediate ranges with factory ammo, is easy to find ammo for and ammo/rifles are reasonably priced and available.

In military guise, IE: fully auto, the .223 is a reasonable man stopper at short range, but at long ranges it's just not got the 'stuff'...
That's why so many M-14 rifles are being pulled out of storage and shipped to the middle east right now...
(Same with the .45 auto, but that's a different story...)
------------------

The absolute best of both worlds is an AR-10 in .308 cal. or .300 WSM cal.
Light weight, fast action, reliable, standard NATO rounds in .308 and long range knock down power...
Recoil control so you can stay on target for a follow up shot...

Pin point accurate, giving all but the hand built bolt guns a run for their money!
Look up the cult following Egyptian and Isriali snipers have for the AR-10...
------------------

If you really want to make the 7.62x39mm work, try an AR-47 lower from Special Weapons Inc, in Mesa, AZ.
AK mags and drums used in an AR format with a 7.62x39mm barrel/bolt.
I like mine with drums! Lots of CHEAP fire power in my beloved AR format with a drum!
------------------------

Clearing a couple of things up,
The Russian version of the .30-30 is the 7.62x54mm round they use for sniper rifles, not the 7.62x39mm AK round.
The biggest difference is the pointed bullet, but with new soft point .30-30 bullets, that isn't as big a problem as it once was.
........

The 'SHTF' bullet I would use would be the discount russian made hollow point ammo.
Dirt cheap in case lots,
Very reasonable stopping power, especially if you gel pack the bullets first,
and available in states like CA. and IL. since it's a rifle round.

Since the cases are normally steel & Berdan primed, you don't have to worry about policing up brass for reload, and you can do practice range cleanup with a magnet.

For short range target saturation, the 7.62x39mm is hard to beat...

 

[GunTech]

30 caliber Russian is 0.310 or 0.311. 30 Caliber US is 0.308.

As many have noted, including myself, the 7.62x39mm ball does not have a good reputation as a stopper. It's heavy and very stable when iot hits something, tending to pass right through things like tissue with little to mark the passing. At short range, the same envelope as the 5.56, the little 223 tends to do more damage to people. The 7.62x39 gets the nod for things like penetration.

Once you go to expanding bullets, the 7.62x39 should surpass the 223 in terms of lethality. But as observed, beither is a more than 300 yard round, and none can touch the 308 with the same expanding ammo.

 

[GunTech]

If you really want to make the 7.62x39mm work, try an AR-47 lower from Special Weapons Inc, in Mesa, AZ.

Why would I shoot 7.62x39 from an AR? The whole point of the AK is the platform, which is more reliable than the AR. The issue seems to be the 7.62x39mm with ball ammo fals short of 223. The correct solution seems to be 223 in an AK, rather than the other way around.

 

[TOU]

Clearing a couple of things up,
The Russian version of the .30-30 is the 7.62x54mm round they use for sniper rifles, not the 7.62x39mm AK round.
The biggest difference is the pointed bullet, but with new soft point .30-30 bullets, that isn't as big a problem as it once was.

........


I'd think it was closer to the 30-06 than the 30-30, no?

Why would I shoot 7.62x39 from an AR? The whole point of the AK is the platform, which is more reliable than the AR. The issue seems to be the 7.62x39mm with ball ammo fals short of 223. The correct solution seems to be 223 in an AK, rather than the other way around.

You just maybe right...or better yet an AK in both calibers.

 

[buck00]

If you find yourself needing to make a shot past 300 yards-ish, you probably shouldn't be using an assault rifle in the first place.

I agree with this. I don't think anyone should get obsessed with hitting targets at 300 plus yards for a SHTF scenario, not even 200, possibly not even 100 yards. It won't be like trading fire on the Western Front in 1917 from a trench- in most civil crisis scenarios, the action would most likely take place under 100 yards. An AK would be perfect for this- it has proven itself in urban and jungle combat over the years (short to medium ranges).

The absolute best of both worlds is an AR-10 in .308 cal

+1. I never thought much of the AR-10 until I shot the DPMS Panther in .308. Very nice rifle.

 

[Deadman]

FWIW here's an extract from Black Hawk Down -

' Then two more holes poked through the tin with loud bangs and dirt flew and Lechner screamed.
He first felt a whipping sensation and then a crushing blow, as if an anvil had fallen on the lower half of his leg. The pain was unbearable. He gripped his upper leg and looked at a gaping hole in his leg.
The bullet had exploded his shinbone and traveled on down his leg and exited at his ankle, shredding the foot beneath the hole. '

And from the rest of the information given on Lt. Lechner, he took no further part in the firefight, and was eventually placed on a morphine drip. He also faced a long recovery after Oct. 3 '93. So it seems 7.62x39 can be quite nasty under certain situations.

 

[Harley Quinn]

Cartridges of the world is a good place to go to find the correct ballistics of these little beauties.

But this is very good also,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7.62x39

So as you can see, it is less than the 30-30 or as some will say about the same.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.30-30_Winchester

But it is no where near an 06.

http://www.olive-drab.com/od_firearms_ammo_30-06.php

HQ

 

[benEzra]

I think he was saying that 7.62x54R is comparable to .30-06, if I read him correctly. You are correct that 7.62x39 is similar to .30-30.

 

[TOU]

Yep...on both counts.

 

[SSN Vet]

just because tube fed lever guns are very popular in .30-30, and are restricted to FN or RN bullets, doesn't mean that the .30-30 cartridge is itself restricted to these ballistically inefiecient projectiles.

if you chose the right powder (Reloader-15 for example) and load up a .308 boat tailed spitzer in a .30-30 case, up to your rifles pressure limit, you'll far outperform the 7.65x39.

The .30-30 has a much greater case capacity, and with a slower powder you can push some pretty darn heavy bullets (180 gr. +) pretty darn fast.

The .30-30 case can fire spitzers from single shot, bolt and even lever action rifles (one in the chamber and one in the tube).

Of course your going to have to load these up yourself.....but why not, that's almost as fun as shooting them.

Edited to add.....don't ask me what this post has to do with the topic of the thread....SHTF rifle calibers.

 

[BangBang]

7.62 x 39 is just fine for S.H.T.F.. Just keep it within 2 - 300 yards, (preferably not more than 150) and stock up on the ammo.

It is all about what the situation dictates. If you can work within those parameters, then this is the right platform, (AK) for you.

 

[JWarren]

I use an AK (with 5 round magazines) as my brush deer rifle-- or should I say a trail-rifle. Basically, we hunt food plots here, but I always put a portable stand on a trail after scouting every year. It gives the opportunity to see a big buck that typically won't go into a food plot at dusk or dawn. It also is a nice change of scenery.

On trails, the maximum shot is will be under 30 yards most likely. An AK with soft points does the job nicely. I put two down cleanly last season with it.


While I am sure the 7.62x39 can reach out as far as the typical food plot shot around here (max shot I've taken was 297 yards), I use a Saiga 308 with Winchester Ballistic Tips on those stands.


-- John

 

[AR Hammer]

WOW! A couple of guy put out a lot of snark on this board!
Wasn't expecting that...
-------------------

I guess I did misspeak some, I didn't differentiate between the standard military 7.62x54mm round, the sniper marked 7.62x54mm, and the 7.62R civilian round.

There are differences in all three.
---------------------

The 7.62x54mm/also known as the 7.62R, is the European version of the .30-30.

The military simply used a pointed nose bullet, but not until after WW-1.

The original civilian released market version didn't at first, but nothing did when this round was adopted.

Most European countries didn't use pointed bullets until after WW-I and some were still using round nose bullets in WW-II.

The 7.62R round was originally a black powder round, later enhanced with 'Smokeless' powder, but the civilian version, chamber pressure wise, is supposed to be equivalent to 30 grains of black powder.

In the firearms museum were were never allowed to use modern military type 7.62x54mm ammo in anything marked '7.62R'.

Although it's the same size and shape case, the early rifles were not designed to take the chamber pressures of the modern version of the military rounds with smokeless powder.

Military refits are one reason 7.62x54mm sniper ammo is clearly marked.
If you have ever seen 7.62x54mm Russian sniper ammo, you know what I'm talking about!
Paned bullet noses, large and clear markings on the ammo packages and clear instructions NOT to use the sniper ammo in crew served weapons!

It is much more powerful than the standard 7.62x54mm link ammo for squad automatic weapons and should not be interchanged.

Soviet military ammo changes are one reason you can't find an 'Early' Dragunov...
The rifles would not cycle correctly, and the barrels wouldn't hold together with the newer, more powerful sniper ammo, so they were destroyed and newer versions were issued.
-------------

The modern 7.62x54mm sniper military round has the equivalent trajectory of the a .308, .30-06 (since both .308 & .30-06 ballistics are nearly identical),

The .30-06 being a black powder based round THIS IS INCORRECT, THE 30-06 WAS DELVELOPED BY THE US MILITARY AS A SMOKELESS ROUND, INSERT BY BW, and the .308 being a nitro-cellulose based 'smokeless' powder round...
Now the 'Sniper' version of the 7.62x54mm round is modern powder.
------------------

But the standard 7.62x54mm military round or the 7.62R round is comparable with the .30-30,
With the exception of the pointed bullet, which gives it slightly better ballistics...
(since it has to be backwards compatible with millions of squad automatic weapons and individual rifles...)
-----------

Same reason the factory can't 'Pump Up' .30-30 rounds... If they do and someone uses them in a 1894 rifle, they stand a good chance of blowing the rifle up...

Civilian market has to conform to SAMMI standards, and make ammo backwards compatible for safety, but the military can do what it wants...
But will interchange in chambers marked for either.
---------------------

Someone got caught off guard and didn't think an new idea through before crapping on it...

7.62x39mm mags for an AR are expensive, and you can't get reliable drums or mags anymore...

As for using the AR-47 lower so you can chamber & shoot AK mags, both straight and drums...
Reasonably priced, available everywhere, function well...

This gives me an AR based format for 7.62x39mm rounds.
I have a short stroke .30 cal. with 75 round drum capacity,
THAT IS ACCURATE & RELIABLE...
China made AK clones are not either...
The Russian combat versions of the AK are few & far between, and priced out of this world when you do find one...
Since all combat versions of the AK were full auto, you have to let Uncle Sam know you have it...
A draw back in my opinion.

Plus I get to use the piles of AR parts I have lying around here, and everybody makes something for an AR and most of it works...
There is some stuff for an AK, but it's not what I'd call plentiful or reliable.

My current stand in for a semi auto version of a 'SAW' is an AR with 20" barrel and 75 rd. drums.
It's also a short stroke rod version so the dirty import ammo doesn't take a crap in my receiver and I don't have gas problems with the huge differences in the cheap production ammo...

Reliability, (in question if you have anything but Russian AK with threaded in barrel)
Parts Availability,
Modular Construction,
Inherent Accraucy,
Cost & Function of Magizines,
Stopping Power,
Available Ammo Sources & Types,
Multiple Caliber Conversions,
Constructive Accessories,

Pretty much the perfect single man carried, .30 cal. 'SHTF' rifle, reliable, rugged, accurate, brutal, sustained fire power.
The next best thing to an M-60, but with out the weight or hassle of linked ammo.
------------------

Long range it's my AR-10's, hands down! Nothing like them!

 

[Harley Quinn]

7.62 x 39 is just fine for S.H.T.F.. Just keep it within 2 - 300 yards, (preferably not more than 150) and stock up on the ammo
*************
Perfect for in the street Id say. Most can't hit real well out much further I have noticed in my observation of those who are not doing it all the time like yours truly.

I even don't hit what I aim at, on purpose some times I have been hunting and missed on purpose, others were not doing well and it was not a time to show off.

Reminds me of a hunt that was down right funny.

But the round we are discussing is a good one for 90% of your shooting in the woods I would believe. Woods, brush, thicket...Would be the correct thought.

Thanks for the clean up on the 54 vs the 39 I just did not read that part

Along with the 06 this was/is nice to my way of thinking.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7.62×54R

Got an FN 49 that shoots it.
HQ

 

[AR Hammer]

I wrote,
"That's the beauty of shooting .30 cal... Same bullets/primers/powders for .300 mags, .30-06, .30-30, .308 ect.... "

Gun Tech wrote:
"30 caliber Russian is 0.310 or 0.311. 30 Caliber US is 0.308.

You missed the point again,
The conversation was about 'SHTF' ammo and rifles, and in a pinch, like when the SHTF I'm sure ANY AMMO will be better than NO AMMO at all!
And .30 cal ammo beats .20 cal. ammo in a 'SHTF' close range fire fight.

As for size discrepancies,
Never put too may calipers on Russian bullets have you?
Or checked Russian or Chinese bores?

Anything from 0.306" to 0.3115" regularly in the surplus ammo, so I'm sure the .308 cal bullets I use aren't going to be any real threat to the function or accuracy!
They seem to cut off about .312" so I don't think I'm endangering anyone.

If a 0.312" will go down the barrel, a 0.3085" should too.

The US military pulled bullets I often use are anywhere from .3075 to .3085, so I'm not sure I'd tout the US standard too loudly.

My US 'Standard' .30 cal. bullets might not be optimum for the 7.62x39mm barrel, but since the AK barrels are crap to begin with, I'm sure not going to hurt them.
The AK's and SKS's I've owned and tested in didn't seem to notice the difference, or actually shot better groups with heavier bullets (although slightly smaller in diameter).

May Colt AR barrels in 7.62x39mm seems to like the heavier and smaller diameter bullets more than the factory Russian rounds, but that would stand to reason, since Colt is much more likely to have a correctly sized bore with sharp, crisp rifling than a Chinese made 'Clunker' built to fire steel cased rounds...

As for 'SHTF' bullets, I use Hollow Points in everything.
.223, 7.62x39mm, .308, .300 WSM, all hollow points...
Can't beat a ballistic tip hollow point for maximum damage, so discussing fragmenting bullets or cannelure separations Vs. straight through damage is kind of a moot point anyway...

I'm not bound by the Hague Accords, so ballistic tip hollow points all around!
If I shoot it twice, it's because I wanted to shoot it again, not because I HAD to shoot it again...

 

[TOU]

Keep in mind this thread is NOT about whether an AK or AR is better...although it always seems to get there eventually. IMHO they are both decent weapons if you stay with a quality specimen to begin with.

I personally want at least two of everything. As far as an AK offering, I personally am more than satisfied with the Saiga's that I have. Trust me they are not the cheap offerings that you see in the WASR or even the Chinese (speaking of the Chinese..they really weren't that bad.) I actually have at least one in every caliber offered including shotties; (Except the rare sample offering of the 5.45x39 that may or may not exsist.) very cool rigs! And the S-12's are second to none for even 3X the money spent. I bought all of the NIB for not much more than the cost of a nice AR. I also have a Daewoo DR-200 with an ACE folder which is my personal favorite of all .223 offerings. Sold my M1a/14 when times were rough and haven't replaced it, don't know if I will. Recently I'm thinking about a Dissy oriented mid-length gas AR platform so that I have something AR'ish. Just to have decide whether to go with BM's factory offering in the M4 length gas system or build my own with the middie. I just figure I might as well have my bases covered.

My current stand in for a semi auto version of a 'SAW' is an AR with 20" barrel and 75 rd. drums.
It's also a short stroke rod version so the dirty import ammo doesn't take a crap in my receiver and I don't have gas problems with the huge differences in the cheap production ammo...

Nice! Which one and what is your set up, I would honestly love to see it.

I personally would love to have a DR-200 that had a lower that would except all the cheap OEM AK mags like you speak of on your AR-47's...but even the DR-300 take modified AK mags which has made me steer clear of them. Sure wish they still imported Daewoo's and GB Sr. hadn't cut off the supply...they just don't seem to ever brake. Anyway...I digress. There is no doubt that the x39 is effective in it's own way and it is by far the most cost effective ammo to buy in bulk at the moment...besides the corrosive 5.45 that may soon dry up.

 

[R.W.Dale]

The 7.62x54mm/also known as the 7.62R, is the European version of the .30-30.

You couldn't be more wrong! 7.62x54R introduced in 1891 PREDATES 30-30 winchester.

Now 7.62x51R IS the European metric designation for 30-30.

AR HAMMER
Where did you get such a line of ill informed BS as the post above

The .30-06 being a black powder based round

LOL PLEASE! you're killing me

But the standard 7.62x54mm military round or the 7.62R round is comparable with the .30-30,

Lets see a light ball 150grn fmj from a x54r at 2800fps versus a 150grn fp from a 30-30 at 2300 fps. THE SAME???? whatever

The only thing 30-30 has in common with the 7.62x54r is the rim and even that is a totally different size

As for size discrepancies,
Never put too may calipers on Russian bullets have you?
Or checked Russian or Chinese bores?

http://7.62x54r.net/MosinID/MosinSpec.htm

http://7.62x54r.net/MosinID/MosinAmmo.htm

The 7.62x54mm/also known as the 7.62R, is the European version of the .30-30.

The military simply used a pointed nose bullet, but not until after WW-1.

A 150grn Spitzer loading was adopted by the Russians in 1909, now do you even know when WWI started and ended?

It isn't an accurate round,

If 7.62x39 isn't an accurate round then why are a couple title winning benchrest rounds based on 7.62x39, The .22 and 6mm ppc?
Given good components the 7.62x39 is just as accurate as anything else.

 

[GunTech]

There is no doubt that 30-30, when handloaded, can be far superior to 7.62x39mm. The comparison was with standard factory ammunition. Since 30-30 is typically loaded with flat point bullets and at relatively low pressure, the 7.62x39 may have slightly less energy at short range, but overtakes the factory 30-30 before 100 yards.

AR hammer, I've mike a lot of Russian ammo and never found the variation you note. Most Russian military ammo in my experience is within +/- 0.001 of 0.3105 - much better than people expect. The issues with AK accuracy have more to do with hard chromed barrels and the general 'sloppiness' of the action. As you no doubt know, the Russuan employ reverse plating followed by plating for chrome lining their barrels. This method leads to irregularities of the bore, which can be easily shown by air guage. Hard chrome lined barrels are typically more inaccurate that non chromed ones because the plating process does not lead to uniform deposition of chrome in the barrel, and hence an irregular bore diameter. This is exactly the reason that one doesn't find chrome lined match rifles.

As noted, firing 7.62x39mm in my CZ-527, which has a hammer forged barrel, I can get military rounds to group under 2 MOA pretty regularly. Hand loaded ammo gives much better results.

And of course it goes without saying that some of the 'winningest' bench rest cartridged are built on a modified 7.62x39mm case (e.g. 6mm PPC, and 6.5mm PPC amongst others).

I have fired 308 bullets in a 0.3105 bbl. The main difference is a reduction in velocity. Loads will typically lose 100 fps when using and undersized bullet in a commercial barrel. In a military AK barrel, there can be keyholing at longer ranges as well.

The US military pulled bullets I often use are anywhere from .3075 to .3085, so I'm not sure I'd tout the US standard too loudly.

That a range of only 0.001 inch, pretty good since pulled bullets are routinely distorted. You should also keeop in mind the accuracy of the measuring tool. Most consumer grade micrometers are barely accurate to 0.001, so variation could well be from the measuring device.

In any case, the whole point of this thread was to point out that while 7.62x39mm with ball ammo is a pretty marginal round, using expanding bullets puts it into a whole different category.

Ball ammo really limits the effectiveness of any round. While 7.62x51mm (308) has almost doule the energy of 5.56x45mm, actual combat data shows that the 5.56 was/is approximately 11% more lethal at typical combat ranges. This is wholly due to the tendency of the 5.56x45mm to break along the canneleur and creat several submissiles in the target. The 7.62s on the other hand, have very well constructed and stable bullets. Both the M43 and M80 ball ammo typicall flip over in tissue, and exit the target base first, creating little in the way of temporary or permament wound cavity.

Compare these military rounds with the 223 with soft point bullets

30-30 with soft point

308 winchester with soft points

 

[GunTech]

AER Hammer, I've handleld a lot of AKs, military select fire and semi-auto civilian versions. I've also shot more than my share of M16 and AR-15, as an infantryman (11B) and Infantry officer, as well as a class 3 collector and consultant to several firearms manufacturers and agencies. I have never seen an AK that wasn't at least as reliable an an AR unless it was damaged.

I love the AR. It is an accurate and reliable weapon - if properly maintained. It is far more accurate, and much more flexible than the AK. But for dead niuts reliablility, the AK wins every time. I can recall firing a full magazine from an AK we dug up that was covered in rust and could have been in the ground for years. Brushed it off and fired 30 rounds with one pull of the trigger. No way an AR will do that.

That being said, most of the AKs I've fired were easily 4-5 MOA guns, where anything past about 50 yards was hit more by luck than skill. My issue M16 would put 5 round into 3/4 of an inch at 100 yards if I used FGMM. Even M855 was good for about 1.5 MOA.

Even the 'best' of the AK, the SVD, was something of a disappointment. We fired several authentic Russian military SVDs and never did get one that did better than about 2 MOA - which is adequate for a DMR (which is what the SVD is anyway).

Our guys with M24s would shoot empty 308 cases at 100 yards.

Just my experience. YMMV.

 

[GunTech]

krochus,

Great links. Looks like it might be worth slugging you Moisin Nagant barrel. With both 0.310 and 0.311 bullets available, it would be interesting to test the different sizes.

 

[R.W.Dale]

I doubt there would be any measurable diffrence in accuracy between .310 and .311 diameter bullets. Like you I found no measurable difference in accuracy shooting .308 diameter projectiles in my CZ527 vs .311 diameter.

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

It's also a short stroke rod version so the dirty import ammo doesn't take a crap in my receiver and I don't have gas problems with the huge differences in the cheap production ammo...

You say you have a short-stroke gas piston AR-47? Who built the 7.62x39 gas piston upper you are using?

 

[Harley Quinn]

Hey, this is a great thread, lets keep it up, good information. Some times it takes a little misinformation to get the good stuff thanks