1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Rifle for learning real markmanship

Discussion in 'Rifle Country' started by itgoesboom, Feb 8, 2007.

  1. itgoesboom

    itgoesboom member

    I feel I do well with my current rifles, (CETME, SKS and Weatherby Vanguard), but I am at the point where I want to learn real solid marksmanship skills, with iron sights.

    There is not much surplus ammo out there left in 7.62 nato, and my CETME beats brass up too much to reload, so the 1k I have in aussie surplus is all I would have available.

    SKS doesn't have very good sights, and isn't exactly accurate.

    The Vanguard is very accurate, but doesn't have iron sights.

    Basically, I want to learn to shoot accurately from positions, using iron sights, possibly compete, and basically, get past all the bad habits I have previously learned. The other hitch is that there is a real possiblity that I might enlist in the Army here in the next 6-8 months. I know they will teach me marksmanship there, but I already have bad habits that I would like to break, and there the chance I won't enlist due to my age.

    My choices seem to be the M1 Garand, the M1A, or an AR-15. I currently reload .30-06, but the AR-15 option would allow me to train with something almost identical to what I would be trained on if I joined.

    What do you think?

  2. Jim Watson

    Jim Watson Well-Known Member

    Well, you could get an AR15 and take up Highpower.

    You could get a good .22 lr and learn to shoot at low ammo cost with negligible recoil and blast.

    Contact NRA or visit local ranges to see what is being shot in your area. There are oftentimes clinics with instruction, rifle, and ammo provided. Check out the Appleseed program for basic shooting instruction.
  3. hrgrisso

    hrgrisso Well-Known Member

    No offense to Military Personel

    I have met and shot with many vets. Most are now cops so have gone through not one, but two firearms trainings. Many also work in the BP/DHS etc. I must say I have been very UNIMPRESSED by the majority (not all, a few can shoot better than anyone else I've seen), the few that shoot great went out of their way to get better training. I would recommend going to a high quality training institute, i.e. Thunder Ranch, Gunsite are the best. Blackwater is good but for sheer marksmanship, not so much.

    I'd also recommend going out and buying a 250 buck Mossberg .270 or .30-06 and putting iron sights on it. Use that in practice training etc. My Mossbert shot to point of aim and was MOA out of the box (no exaggeration). AR's, AK's, MI's and M14s are great guns, but for the sheer purpose of marksmanship learn on a bolt. just my 2cents.
  4. Art Eatman

    Art Eatman Administrator Staff Member

    Buy a decent bolt-action .22 rifle. Find the particular brand and style of ammo that gives the tightest groups.

    That is the least expensive way to learn to press the trigger between heartbeats. (It's an Olympic shooter thing. :) )

    Same for learning how to deal with the normal 0.2 second delay between your brain telling your trigger finger to press and the actual doing so. You learn to think, "Shoot," when your sights will waver/wobble onto perfection in 0.2 seconds.

    It takes a while. :)

  5. CZ223

    CZ223 Well-Known Member

    The Ar-15

    is probably the way to go for you. The AR is a very accurate platform and the ammo is inexpensive. If I were you I would opt for one with a removeable carry handle. This will allow you to shoot with Iron sights and to mount a scope, just to test the inherent aacuracy of the rifle. A good 22 with iron sights would also go a long way toward doing what you would like to achieve.
  6. ArmedBear

    ArmedBear Well-Known Member

    Something to consider:

    Good .22 ammo isn't all that cheap. I think PMC Scoremaster is pretty good, and it's not too expensive. But the really good stuff can be pricey.

    .17 rimfire ammo is also not all that cheap, but you don't have to go looking too far for stuff that groups well, like you do with .22LR. It shoots a good deal flatter, too. And it's cheaper than centerfire.
  7. halvey

    halvey Well-Known Member

    You can get a pretty nice .22 and a pallet of ammo for the cost of a "cheap" bolt.

    A good AR setup for highpower is a lot to lay out. Those guys shoot with a heck of a lot nicer than a standard A2. But it will work.
  8. RNB65

    RNB65 Well-Known Member

    A .22lr at various distances (25yds, 50yds, 100yds, 150yds) will teach you everything you need to know about marksmanship. .22lr is a slow bullet with a lot of curve in the trajectory. With practice you'll learn how to adjust elevation to compensate for the trajectory at different distances. Also, if you practice on windy days, you'll learn how to adjust windage to compensate for the wind. When you get to the point that you can consistently shoot 2-3" groups at 150yds in breezy conditions, you'll be pretty darn good with a rifle.
  9. ArmedBear

    ArmedBear Well-Known Member

    ...another thing...

    Rimfires won't encourage you to develop a flinch.:)
  10. Davo

    Davo Well-Known Member

    .22 target rifle, air rifle, and the swiss k31.
  11. cracked butt

    cracked butt Well-Known Member

    .22 bolt action target rifle or a quality bolt action rifle fitted with aperture sights.
    -Its cheap to feed.
    -You use the exact same skills and fundamentals as you would shooting any other rifle.
    -The rifle will be more accurate that you could possibly hold unless your entire body is made of granite.
    -You can get the same wind effects as a centerfire rifle at a much shorter range.
    -You'll be more focused on making every shot count with a bolt action versus the temptation to spray a few shots with one of the semiauto 'toy' rimfires.
    -You can shoot at reactive targets to get instant feedback- its often difficult to get reactive targets that will hold up to centerfires, let alone find a range that will let you shoot them.
    -Botl action rimfires are often made to mimic the handling of centerfire rifles- popular autoloaders tend to be on the scaled down carbine size.
  12. Avenger29

    Avenger29 Well-Known Member

    I vote for .22 as well. It is the most cost effective.

    The CZ 452 is an extremely well made bolt action rifle, and it comes from the factory with the best production iron sights on a .22 rifle. If I was a brand new shooter, this is the rifle I would want.

    You could also get an AR-15 in .223 and/or get a dedicated .22 upper for it as well.
  13. ocabj

    ocabj Well-Known Member

    Kimber M82 from the CMP. $600 + $22.95 shipping gets you a brand new rifle in .22LR with aperture sights suitable for position shooting.

    Though, it would be awesome if you went the AR15 route and started High Power. But your investment in a rifle will be around $1200 for a good NM upper and 2-stage trigger. The cheapest way to go would be the RRA NM rifle, but for just a couple hundred more, you could easily outclass the RRA. Also, you would expect to pay at least $200 or so for a decent shooting coat, plus un-Godly amounts of money on a spotting scope, scope stand, shooting cart, etc.

    So yeah, a good 22 like the Kimber M82 is the best option. But definitely check out a High Power tournament in your area if there is one. They may even loan you a rifle so you can participate in the match. You may find that you actually like High Power.
  14. ArmedBear

    ArmedBear Well-Known Member

  15. EricTheBarbarian

    EricTheBarbarian Well-Known Member

    wait a minute....... you guys are saying that real marksmanship isnt just throwing lead down range?
  16. ocabj

    ocabj Well-Known Member

    Whoa. I never saw that Savage model before. That's a pretty good buy. $331 MSRP? You should be able to find it for $250 locally. Definitely worth looking into.
  17. mustanger98

    mustanger98 Well-Known Member

    As an M1 Garand owner, I advise you to get a Garand before CMP runs out. You did say you handload for .30-06... you can tailor your loads to your rifle and and iron sights are already there. For acceptance for service, the M1 had to do 4MOA or better. From what I hear, a good many do a lot better.

    Or, for a bolt action, if you can find a 1903A3 they have a finer front sight than the Garand or 1903. Some '03's and '03A3's have been built into good iron-sighted precission rifles as well.

    For a .22LR bolt action, I recommend getting on Gunbroker.com and running a search for Remington 521-T. I say that because I really like mine which came with the Lyman 57RS rear sight and 17A on the front. Some are marked "U.S. Property" and that runs the price up some, but I'd bet there's still some can be had cheaper.

    Editted to add:

    That's the first I saw of it too. Looks like a nice deal for a new rifle. Never noticed a .22LR with the AccuTrigger before. Anything $331 or less for this one sounds good considering how prices are going these days. My 521-T has features or details you won't get on a new production rifle. But if you want new production, I think this one's the way to go.
  18. MechAg94

    MechAg94 Well-Known Member

    If you already load 30.06, you might consider a 1903 or 1903A3 rifle. They are very accurate and have good iron sights. The CMP still has some and replacement barrels are available. My 1903A3 will shoot 1.5" groups with Lake City surplus. I imagine good hand loads could do better.

    Failing that, I like the .22 suggestions, but that might be better for a novice shooter.

    An AR15 is an excellent choice if you want to go that way. It might be better to not shoot that rifle though to avoid interfering with your training in the near future.
  19. ArmedBear

    ArmedBear Well-Known Member

    The Accu-Trigger, too, makes it a particularly good deal. It's ready to go right out of the box.

    Aftermarket triggers are also not cheap. If I got a CZ for this purpose, I'd probably spring for the 453 with the single-set trigger, but then you're talking $500+, without sights.
  20. Vern Humphrey

    Vern Humphrey Well-Known Member

    What's your goal? If it's to really learn rifle marksmanship at long ranges, I heartily endorse those who advise you to get a .22 -- and that Savage with the accutrigger looks like an unbeatable combination.

    You can learn position shooting and long range shooting -- just stretch it beyond 100 yards and you'll learn more from a .22 than you can from a centerfire, both about trajectory and wind.

    You can learn fast, offhand shooting with a .22 better than with any other rifle - I've fired hundreds of thousands of rounds offhand, working the bolt from the shoulder for just that purpose.

    Now, if you want to learn high-power competition shooting, then a good AR 15 clone is what you need. But for general marksmanship, the .22 can't be beat.

Share This Page