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Rising crime in Florida due to lack of police presence (not firearms availability)

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by Zen21Tao, Sep 25, 2007.

  1. Zen21Tao

    Zen21Tao Well-Known Member

    Tonight on our local Fox news channel there was a nice story that presented statistical evidence showing the rising crime in Florida is correlated with fewer police officers. For example, while the national standard fopr crime control is 2.5 to 3 police officers per 1000 people, in Orange Country Florida their is only 0.78 police officers per 1000 people (residents and tourists). The story goes on to say that lack of funding is the number one cause for not hiring enough officers to meet the national standard.

    So, while gun-control advocates want to blame firearm ownership for crime and say all law abiding civilians should rely on the police for help, it may actually be the lack of police presence that is allowing crime to rise. Imagine if these gun-grabbers that keep saying they really wanted to reduce crime actually started raising funds to put more police officers on the the streets than simply pass new gun laws for criminals to break.

    Here is the story:


  2. iiibdsiil

    iiibdsiil Well-Known Member

    So uh, how are 1.6 officers supposed to protect a 1000 people? How could an anti even begin to say that it is the duty of the police to protect you? And how does the president get 12 body guards and not be safe but the average Joe Blow gets 1.6 per 1000 people and is expected to be safe?

    And why am I not getting the feeling that this is a per shift number? Figure 3 8 hour shifts, and the numbers get worse...
  3. Grump

    Grump Well-Known Member

    There is a combined deterrence and incapacitation effect with a reasonable police presence.

    1. Seeing a cop regularly tends to keep the BGs' heads down. Seeing too few emboldens them.

    2. Greater police presence tends to get the BGs arrested on minor crap just enough *more* to almost incidentally keep them out of circulation and unable to prey on the rest of us.

    It's not necessarily the overall incarceration rate, but more a matter of keeping the worst ones (repeat offenders of various sorts) sufficiently "hassled" by legit arrests and short-term sentences, that they not only are off the streets a few weeks per year, but they have greater incentive to lay low enough to not get caught.

    That's largely how Guliani sorta cleaned up Noo Yawk City, in between oppressing his critics and otherwise being the big-city version of an HOA Nazi.

    What chaps me is the times when non-gun murders go up, and the simpletons still call for "less guns on the street". Sometimes, we need *more*, and we must never confuse the outright criminal attacks from the legitimate self-defense shootings.
  4. Zen21Tao

    Zen21Tao Well-Known Member

    It was actually very coincidental that this story aired.

    On HuffPo, our favorite anti-gun hysteric Kelli was just saying that rather than arming ourselves we should be entrusting our lives to the police. In fact, she even said that our arguments that "police can't be relied on 100% for our safety" is just police bashing with the goal of gaining pro-gun support by inciting fear into other.

    It was quite interesting to see that the very police agencies she says we should be entrusting our lives to are admitting that they do not have enough officers employed to properly combat crime. As the report says, while the national standards it to have 2.5 to 3 police officers per civilian, Orange Country, FL only has 0.73 officers per civilian. According to the Sheriffs Department, lack of funding is the only thing that prevents them from hiring more officers.

    Kelli remained oddly quiet when I pointed out that the Brady Campaign and other anti-gun groups, if they really cared about fighting crime like they say they do, could work towards helping States raise funds for hiring more police officers. Instead, these anti-gun groups continue to direct their efforts towards force States to adopt new laws that simply eat up even more of that State's finite resources, the same resources that are needed to fund police agencies. In fact, anti-gun folks actually help perpetuate the very crimes they say they want to prevent by forcing these States to use their finite resources on the anti-gun laws they want rather than where it is needed, hiring police officers and punishing criminals.
  5. hunttheevil

    hunttheevil Well-Known Member

    I guess Kelli has forgotten the 911 tapes that were played after natural disasters, or even during the LA Riots where the dispatcher says you have to "protect yourself, the police can't help you".
  6. CountGlockula

    CountGlockula Well-Known Member

    Great, I hope my folks, brother, sister-in-law and niece come back safely.

    They're at Disney World as we speak.
  7. tegemu

    tegemu Well-Known Member

    Could it also be that the media spends a lot of time reporting shootings, which glorifies shooting in a gangbangers eyes and then hardly any time on reporting the consequences of crime?
  8. woodybrighton

    woodybrighton member

    gun control if it actually makes it harder for bgs to gain access to guns and ammo.
    in the uk replica's and borocks a type of air cartridge that could be fired from an air pistol that was easy to convert and the rules on deacts have been changed as they were actually being used by bgs. that makes sense and does'nt really effect good guys that much
  9. orionengnr

    orionengnr Well-Known Member

    Spek English, please :)

    You know, with punctuation, sentences, capitalisation, etc...
  10. Mannlicher

    Mannlicher Well-Known Member

    Here in Gainesville, we have a rising crime problem. We have no shortage of police persons. What we do have, is a police administration, and a City Commission, that puts emphasis on revenue producing policing.
    Traffic stops are at an all time high now, yet there is still a rise in crimes against the Citizen's person and property.
    If the police administration shifted manpower ( or girl power, as is so often the case here) to solving and preventing crimes against Citizens person and property, the rate would drop.
    That would mean a drop in city revenue as well, and therefore is unacceptable.
  11. GTSteve03

    GTSteve03 Well-Known Member

    I wonder how much of this rising crime rate can be attributed to violence between various gangs of illegal immigrants moving into FL?
  12. obiwan1

    obiwan1 Well-Known Member

    I the '70s the police of (i believe) Phoenix, Az went on strike for a few days. The crime rate WENT DOWN! It seems that the crooks were just shot by potential victims, not taken into custody (by whom?). They figured out pretty quickly that they had no "rights" with their potential victims. :D
  13. Black Adder LXX

    Black Adder LXX Well-Known Member

    I don't see how 3/4 of an officer would be much help, anyways... :)
  14. lacoochee

    lacoochee Well-Known Member

    Probably some percentage of it, but remember our population in this state is still rapidly growing and we are outstripping our infrastructure and will continue to do so until the rapid growth stops. That means we will have inadequate roads, not enough hospitals, not enough police of fire coverage, too few schools and those that we do have will be overcrowded and have the attendant problems with such things, there are probably a whole slew of reasons why it is going up.

    I do know this though, it would be far worse if we weren't armed and able to defend ourselves.


    Illegal Aliens Linked to Rise in Crime Statistics
    Jim Kouri

    The former Immigration and Naturalization Service estimated that as of January 2000 the total unauthorized immigrant population residing in the United States was 7 million. This total includes those who entered the United States illegally and those who entered legally but overstayed their authorized period of stay.

    A more recent study estimated that there were about 10 million illegal aliens living in the United States as of March 2005. The study estimated that nearly 700,000 aliens entered the United States illegally or overstayed their authorized period of stay each year between 2000 and 2004. Some experts believe this is a overly conservative figure and that illegal immigrants number close to 20 million.

    At the same time, after a steady annual reduction in crime, the annual FBI Uniform Crime Report reveals a slow but sure yearly increase in crime, especially violent crime. Some criminologists attribute the rise in crime to illegal aliens who come into the United States with a criminal background.

    Many illegal aliens in the United States have been arrested and incarcerated in federal and state prisons and local jails, adding to already overcrowded prisons and jails. The US Justice Department issued a report on criminal aliens who are incarcerated in federal and state prisons and local jails.

    The report contained information on the number of criminal aliens incarcerated, their country of citizenship or country of birth, and the cost to incarcerate them. Congress also requested that the Government Accounting Office provide information on the criminal history of aliens incarcerated in federal and state prisons or local jails who had entered the country illegally.

    In the population study of a sample of 55,322 illegal aliens, researchers found that they were arrested at least a total of 459,614 times, averaging about 8 arrests per illegal alien. Nearly all had more than 1 arrest. Thirty-eight percent (about 21,000) had between 2 and 5 arrests, 32 percent (about 18,000) had between 6 and 10 arrests, and 26 percent (about 15,000) had 11 or more arrests. Most of the arrests occurred after 1990.

    They were arrested for a total of about 700,000 criminal offenses, averaging about 13 offenses per illegal alien. One arrest incident may include multiple offenses, a fact that explains why there are nearly one and half times more offenses than arrests. Almost all of these illegal aliens were arrested for more than 1 offense. Slightly more than half of the 55,322 illegal aliens had between 2 and 10 offenses.

    About 45 percent of all offenses were drug or immigration offenses. About 15 percent were property-related offenses such as burglary, larceny-theft, motor vehicle theft, and property damage. About 12 percent were for violent offenses such as murder, robbery, assault, and sex-related crimes.

    The balance was for such offenses as traffic violations, including driving under the influence; fraud --including forgery and counterfeiting; weapons violations; and obstruction of justice.

    Eighty percent of all arrests occurred in three states--California, Texas, and Arizona. Specifically, about 58 percent of all arrests occurred in California, 14 percent in Texas, and 8 percent in Arizona.

    Sources: Government Accounting Office, US Department of Justice, National Security Institute


    Jim Kouri, CPP is currently fifth vice-president of the National Association of Chiefs of Police and he's a staff writer for the New Media Alliance (thenma.org). He's former chief at a New York City housing project in Washington Heights nicknamed "Crack City" by reporters covering the drug war in the 1980s. In addition, he served as director of public safety at a New Jersey university and director of security for several major organizations. He's also served on the National Drug Task Force and trained police and security officers throughout the country.

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