SCOTUS: Police don't have to knock, justices say

[TallPine]

No comment

 

[Camp David]

My God, I'm still shaking my head over the Nafta Highway thing and now this?

There is a company in West Virginia I believe that makes steel solid-core home residence doors that are immune to normal police break-in battering rams (heavy-hinged, solid-steel with full length dead-bolds). The doors actually look a lot like the door on a gun safe, but tailored for your home. In order to install they require a complete renovation on your home because enhanced doors are locked into home wall framing.... in any event... this company's stock just doubled on the NYSE as a result of this ruling!

 

[RaetherEnt]

Good point.

 

[OrvilleYertleson]

What's the company name?

 

[mzmtg]

I used to work for Norshield Security Products. Most of our work was for the State Department, but we did have a few residential projects as well.

Maybe I need to upgrade my entire house to a 15-minute FE rating...

 

[bg]

So do some or most agree the U.S IS turning into a
fiefdom ? The Conservative movement I thought meant
less taxes, moderate spending and smaller government.

So this Admin and Congress, the ones we voted in...have
managed to blow the deficit out the door, have spent
more than any previous government but has stuck to
the small government..Its very own lil government
when it comes to its own secrets, etc, but
domestic spying, government intrusion, and
now FORCED government intrusion, land
grabbing, etc is now the norm. That sounds
like a obese government to me.

Who do we have to blame but ourselves ? I'm guilty.
I voted for the President twice, I supported Alito
and Roberts and I've voted for the my House Rep who
is now under investigation for military favors. And
here I thought I was helping to secure a bit more
private freedom by voting this way.

All I really did was just throw gas on a small fire that
has now blown up right in my face. I made a mistake
voting the way I did, but not again.

What is alarming is when an anti-gun admin gets into
office. Who do you think the new domestic anti terrorist
targets will be ? Do you own a gun ?

And now I'm reading posts about installing reinforced doors to
protect us from OUR OWN VERY GOVERNMENT !

Boy was Mr.Jefferson ever right on this..

"The government of a nation may be usurped by the forcible intrusion of an individual into the throne. But to conquer its will so as to rest the right on that, the only legitimate basis, requires long acquiescence and cessation of all opposition." --Thomas Jefferson to ----, 1825. ME 16:127

Oh Lord what has happened to us...

 

[xd9fan]

WELL I SAY I'M NOT GOING TO WAIT UNTILL THE INTRUDER (that broke into MY HOUSE) ID'S THEMSELVES BEFORE I SHOOT, LAW ABIDDING CITIZEN SAYS.

WASHINGTON (AP) -- The Supreme Court ruled Thursday that police armed with a warrant can barge into homes and seize evidence even if they don't knock, a huge government victory that was decided by President Bush's new justices.

wow big surprize that Bush's picks ARE NOT CONSERVATIVE.

(why do I feel like telling Camp David, "See I told you so")

 

[xd9fan]

Is anyone really suprised by this? At first "no-knocks" were for emergencies and dangerous criminals. Then it was because evidence could be destroyed. Then it was for officer safety. Now, they don't even have to go through the motions of knocking and announcing their presence, the Polizei can just come right in and search, heck they don't even have to go through the hassle of getting a warrant, just make up some excuses about funny smells or screams inside.

and do what the ATF does and just go in with a blank warrent to fill in the blanks after the damage and death.

 

[HCfan]

I have a friend that built his house with reinforced ceder block and put in the steel doors, bullet proof windows and then had a steel "safe room" (was also his safe).

He isn't paranoid, just had way too much money. But it proved to be an asset when he was out of town for a week and a trio of criminals tried to break into the home. They couldn't do it and they tried everything (rams, crowbars, F150 pickup (which was found disabled due to the front being crushed in), etc..) and then left.

Since they left the truck, they were found (took the tags but they forgot about the VIN).

If I had the money, I think that it would be a good idea now. Then I thought he was just eccentric.

 

[mzmtg]

If I had the money, I think that it would be a good idea now. Then I thought he was just eccentric.

 

[GEM]

Naive political view of conservative. It is not a freedom based term when put forward by the Bushies and social conservatives. It is a authoritarian, controlling of the populace, and get your personal space view.

It will be enforced by the states' power. Personal freedom and the strong BOR is not a high point of the social conservative movement.

So the conservatives on the court are statist authoritarians. Big surprise. As long as the trains run on time, we have a flag burning amendment, no gay marriage, no kind of abortion at all - they are just dandy? Unfortunately, they happily through away the rest of our rights at the same time. I fyou think they will increase individual power by voting some comprehensive 2nd Amend. decision - well, you are smoking the stuff that the no-knock raids have save us from.

 

[Jeff White]

I hate to throw a wet blanket on the smoldering embers of the indignation of the we're turning into a police state crowd.....but would one of you explain to me what the practical difference is between knocking on the door while you loudly announce POLICE WITH A SEARCH WARRANT and just loudly announcing POLICE WITH A SEARCH WARRANT and waiting a few seconds and then entering the residence? Having served a few warrants I can tell you that the entry team is making enough noise when they announce their presence that it's doubtful the occupants could hear anyone knocking over the din of a dozen of so officers announcing their presence.

In practical terms I don't see how this ruling changes anything about a knock and announce entry. The knock and announce happens at the same time. The amout of time that is waited before entry was the same.

A true no knock warrant service is when you don't announce your presense at all but just enter the residence. True no knock warrants are very hard to get and contrary to the popular beliefs of members of internet gun forums are very rare.

Jeff

 

[Biker]

I'm no lawyer Jeff, but didn't this ruling just make *all* warrants on demand no knocks?

Biker

 

[PCGS65]

Heck the way I see it with a warrant they always could enter your home whether they knock and you answer or they knock and you don't answer or when your not home.

 

[Jeff White]

Biker,
I haven't read the decision yet, just the news reports so my take may be wrong. But from everything I have seen so far, the ruling doesn't eliminate the requirement to announce your presense. It just means that the officers didn't err enough by failing to knock, but still announcing their presense and waiting to enter that the seized evidence shouldn't be suppressed.

Jeff

 

[GTSteve03]

I really don't even know what to think about this anymore. I knew Jeff would be first in line to defend this, but it just makes me sick.

All of this thanks to our (neverending) War on (some) Drugs.

 

[benEzra]

I haven't read the decision yet, just the news reports so my take may be wrong. But from everything I have seen so far, the ruling doesn't eliminate the requirement to announce your presense. It just means that the officers didn't err enough by failing to knock, but still announcing their presense and waiting to enter that the seized evidence shouldn't be suppressed.

Pausing for 3 seconds before breaking the door down is "waiting to enter"?

Justice Antonin Scalia, writing for the majority, said Detroit police acknowledge violating that rule when they called out their presence at a man's door then went inside three seconds to five seconds later.

I don't know about you, but I can't unlock and open my door in 3 seconds. What this does is to completely turn the concept of a "knock and announce" warrant on its head.

If the situation calls for a no-knock warrant, then the police need to go to the magistrate and get a no-knock warrant. Otherwise, you've just destroyed every distinction between K&A's and no-knocks.

 

[xd9fan]

come on Jeff......tell me how this decision helps the individual's liberty.......

please tell me how this too will not be abused by the police........

please tell me how this advances/protects individual liberty...........

This is one, just one, of the thousand cuts needed for the incremental change to take place. And at each small cut, theres alway a few that cry "what the big deal"


come on Jeff.....

 

[Jeff White]

GTSteve03,
If the news reports are correct, what has this ruling changed? Can you answer my question about what pratical difference it means? I'd really like to know where everyone is coming from. All the moaning and wailing seems like a kneejerk panic reaction.

I'll be the first to admit my take was wrong if this ruling does in fact make every warrant a no knock warrant. But I don't think it does. I have no doubt that the court would not even have heard this case and the evidence would have been rightfully suppressed in the lower courts had they not announced their presense and waited before entry.

xd9fan,
The court doesn't exist to always defend personal liberty. In cases like this the court has to balance the needs of society to enforce the laws it passed with the right of the individual to be free of unwarranted government intrusions into his life. Like it or not there has to be some kind of balance between the needs of all of us (society with it's laws) and the rights of the individual. If my take on the decision is right, what has the court actually changed?
Jeff

 

[The Real Hawkeye]

How the hell is this conservative?

The only sense in which this can be viewed as "conservative" is if they justified it by asserting that it relates to a police matter, and police matters are State matters, according to our Constitution. They would further assert that the Fourth Amendment only restrains the actions of the Federal Government. That's not what they argued, however. What they argued was, essentially, that to follow the Constitution would be too grave an inconvenience for the police officers and the criminal justice system, so lets just forget about it.

 

[BigO01]

I hate to throw a wet blanket on the smoldering embers of the indignation of the we're turning into a police state crowd.....but would one of you explain to me what the practical difference is between knocking on the door while you loudly announce POLICE WITH A SEARCH WARRANT and just loudly announcing POLICE WITH A SEARCH WARRANT and waiting a few seconds and then entering the residence? Having served a few warrants I can tell you that the entry team is making enough noise when they announce their presence that it's doubtful the occupants could hear anyone knocking over the din of a dozen of so officers announcing their presence.

In practical terms I don't see how this ruling changes anything about a knock and announce entry. The knock and announce happens at the same time. The amout of time that is waited before entry was the same.

A true no knock warrant service is when you don't announce your presense at all but just enter the residence. True no knock warrants are very hard to get and contrary to the popular beliefs of members of internet gun forums are very rare.

Jeff

That's all well and good but it would sure be nice if you fellas "LEO's" would be sure you're at a criminals door before you serve your warrants .

There was a story in the St. Louis Post Dispatch a few years ago where the police kicked in a door , destroyed it , shoved machine guns in family members faces and tossed them on the floor holding guns to there heads for 10 minutes before they relized they weren't at a crack house . After it was all said and done the only thing the jerk in charge had to say about scarying the heck out of those people was "well if they had been out shopping or at the movies they wouldn't have been scared" and walked away from the reporter .

No apology , no fixing there door just "come on guys lets go kick in another door" .

There was another piece years ago I think in WA where they shot a homeowner who was on the phone calling the police because he thought his home was being invaded and had his pistol in his hand when they busted in , he is now permently paralized because they shot him . Their reasonable search was based on a street infomants lies about where he got his drugs from , when intervied as to why they simply took the informants word the cops said "well we surveyed the house and he had two $50 thousand+ cars and fit the profile of a drug dealer" , the guy was a CEO of a company and made over a quarter of a million a year and could afford to drive whatever he wanted too legallly !!!!

And lets not forget that guy in NY city they mowed down with their 9mm's firing what was it close to 60 rounds when he didn't do anything at all .

There may still be some very decent police left in this country but I think they are the minority , as many of them seem fit the NRA's description of "Jack Bootted Thugs !" .

Hitlers SS is alive and well in the streets of America and you don't have to be a Jew to need to be afraid for your very life at any given moment !

 

[GTSteve03]

f the news reports are correct, what has this ruling changed? Can you answer my question about what pratical difference it means? I'd really like to know where everyone is coming from. All the moaning and wailing seems like a kneejerk panic reaction.

A 1995 SCOTUS ruling made no-knock warrants illegal except in certain circumstances.

Know what those circumstances were?

1. Apprehension of peril (ie. Officer safety.)
2. Useless gesture.
3. Destruction of evidence.

Now tell me why that ruling needed to be overturned and what else needed to be added to that list since it wasn't encompassing enough to make no-knock warrants a sometimes thing?

Source: http://www.fbi.gov/publications/leb/1997/may976.htm

 

[ArmedBear]

Because “conservatives” support “law and order,” don’t you know?

You know as well as I do that "conservative" means something different in legal vs. political parlance. Sometimes the meanings are similar, sometimes not.

Now personally, I see this ruling as far less significant than the incremental but far more threatening creep of "probable cause". This has not been the result of a single ruling, but rather death by a thousand cuts.

It's true that, once the pigs (in the Simpsonian sense, of course) have their warrant, they have a lot of power to do whatever, inside your home. Whether they knock, and how long they wait, is a matter of tactics as much as anything.

If they can do poorly-defined and unlimited searches, or enter your home WITHOUT a warrant based on "probable cause", THEN we have a police state. And that's where we are going, if we're not already there. Even the fact that the cops can pull you over on the pretext of your taillight flickering, but without genuine probable cause, is an enormous problem.

I'm willing to allow "hot pursuit" as justification, but not the fact that someone in the house is "probably" breaking some law. It's getting close to that.

 

[TallPine]

The court doesn't exist to always defend personal liberty.

Well, there's no arguing with that

Sorta like 3 foxes, one of whom is supposedly looking out for the rights of the chickens

 

[Carl N. Brown]

Knock-knock
Who's there?
Police with a warrant!

Police announced "Police with a warrant" waited a fiew beats and
walked in without actually going knovk-knock first.

The Fourth Amendemnt does not require knock first. It does not
even mention announcement before entry. However, knock,
announce, then enter with cooperation of searchee usually
enhances the safety of all concerned. No knock should be
the exception not the rule.

This seems like a first step on a rather slippery slope.[/QUOYE]
This is just another step on a slope we've been slipping on for decades.

scotus: suppressing evidence is too high of a penalty

Gee, I thought suppressing evidence for such mis-steps was
the penalty intended to prevent such mis-steps in the first place.
What discipline is left to keep Joe Friday (Dragnet) from morphing
into Vic Macky (The Shield)?

I haven't read the decision yet, just the news reports

Yes, the actual court decisions are often quite a bit more
nuanced than the news reports and need to be decoded by
legal experts and not newspaper reporters.

I am still apprehensive but not willing to jump into the
bumker just yet.