Self-Defense bullets/powder

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Is HS-6 a clean burning powder as well? I intend to use it for 38 special (reg and +P) and 40 SW loads and was curious. Was also looking at AutoComp and Viht N340. Leaning towards HS-6 or N340 at the moment. I'm not familiar enough with the Ramshot powders to know if any of them are clean and low flash.
HS-6 is a low flash powder. It is also very clean but only when used at the top end of the pressure range. (like most powders) I don't suggest using HS-6 for light .38 Special loads, you will have a lot of unburnt powder at lower pressures.

I've heard good things about AutoComp but I'm not sure how it performs when downloaded. It is low flash from everything I've heard... If you want 1 powder for the .38 Special in standard and +P loads give W231/HP-38 a try. It's fairly low flash and it's clean across it's pressure range.
 
all my carry semi-auto pistols (either a Mak or Beretta .32) I have a hot handload h-p XTP or GS chambered then handload fmj's in the mag. if I was forced to use it and got into trouble for useing them I'd say I bought the loads at the gun show. because they were cheap. let them prove other wise.
 
Is HS-6 a clean burning powder as well? I intend to use it for 38 special (reg and +P)

Not in my experience using +P 125 jacketed and +P 158 LSWC data in .38 Special. Even Hodgdon max 9mm loads with 115 and 124 gran bullets are far from "clean" (especially in the cold weather). Have used HS-6 in in max .45 Auto loads, but do not remember/didn't note how "clean" it was. In .38 Special in particular, HS-6 leaves a ton of soft sandy grit that gets under the star on extraction. Hodgdon book max loads produced this same soft sandy grit (less than .38 Special) in my 9mm pistols and in a 16" UZI carbine, but in an UZI is no threat to reliability at all.

Any .38 Special +P ammo I make now gets powered with Power Pistol. It's MUCH cleaner, slightly lower charge weights, meters great, very high chronographed velocities with factory data... PP also works fantastic in my experience with 9mm, and .45 Auto, cast or jacketed, light to max charges, and their is good data for it in .40 cal too. Power Pistol does seem to be "boomy", and may be a bit flashy, but just the same I won't be buying any more HS-6 when my stash is gone.
 
Also, is there really a law in California that you can't use handloads for self defense? I thought that was all a bunch of BS.

They would have to do a separate detailed forensic examination just to prove whether a particular round was a handload or not. I've never, *ever* heard of that actually happening...
I always carry with commercial ammo for legal reasons.

Even if there is no law there are always legions of lawyers and even prosecutors that will sue you or charge you for using handloads when you shoot someone.

It doesn't matter why you had to shoot, or how bad the guy was, they love to get into court and the press about your homemade man killer ammo.

Bill
 
No one that ever was part of a GOOD shoot was convicted for reloads. Prove me wrong.

First of all, simply avoiding CONVICTION is not my only goal. I'd rather avoid a trial. I'd rather avoid even addressing the ammo issue at trial if there is one. In this case, 3 or 4 trials and hundreds of thousands of dollars in legal fees could have been avoided. GSR is an issue in upwards of 40% of defensive shooting cases, and I'd rather not discard evidence that will likely help me in a good shoot.

Secondly, if you didn't realize, the defendant in that case DID NOT FIRE THE GUN (he did previously load it), yet he was CONVICTED TWICE. Both of his attorneys stated that had factory ammo been used, they didn't think there would have been a conviction.
 
A few years ago I handloaded my defense ammo because the cartridge I chose, Remington 9mm 147gr Golden Saber, exhibited velocity extremes of as much as 125 fps when I chrono'd them from my G19. I liked the Golden Saber bullet so I developed handloads, using VV 3N37 propellant, that duplicated average factory velocity from my G19 (throwing out the extremes). I used new Remington brass. I had no qualms about my handload for defense then, nor would I now. It was my "standard" cartridge for training and defense. I had ammo cans full of this stuff.

This all changed when, in an effort to reduce costs, I chose the Speer 9mm +P Gold Dot load for defrense, which I could easily duplicate identical performance for training using less expensive 124gr FMJ bullets.

Handloads for defense have the potential to increase the cost of your defense as a result of the time and effort required to defend their use. If you choose to use handloads, like I did, I suggest using, at a minimum, the same brand of brass (preferrably new brass) as the bullet for dedicated defense loads. Also, duplicate factory velocity with your handloads. Don't volunteer any information about your ammo, and if queried, consult with your lawyer first before making any statements.

There's nothing wrong with handloads for defense. Handloads might be all you have at your disposal the time for any number of reasons (e.g., shooting up all your factory ammo at the range and having to load your gun with leftover handloads for the ride home; lack of commerical ammo availability; etc.).
 
Factory or handloaded, if you shoot somebody it's probably going to cost you a lot of money.
 
In New Jersey v. Danial Bias, the weapon was loaded with light reloads. The police used +P factory loads in their GSR tests. The police results incriminated the defendant. The defense experts tested reloads identical to what the defendant claimed to have used. The defense results would have exonerated the defendant, but the evidence was not admitted, because it would have required the court to take the defendant's word for the handload recipe. In other words, the defendant literally manufactured the evidence and the reloading records. This resulted in an indictment and a hung jury in the first trial costing the defendant $100,000. The second trial also resulted in a hung jury. The third trial resulted in a Reckless Manslaughter conviction that was overturned on appeal. A fourth trial also ended in a Reckless Manslaughter conviction and a prison sentence. These trials lasted over ten years and of course bankrupted the defendant. We cannot know, but it is possible, even likely, that had factory ammo been used and the resulting GSR tests supported the defense, there may well have been either no indictment or an acquittal at the first trial. Regardless, I see no legitimate reason to ask for that kind of trouble by trying to save $20 on your self-defense ammo.

Really? From Mas Ayoobs writing:
It was after this that I personally lost track of the case. However, I’ve learned this past week that the case of NJ v. Daniel Bias was tried a third time in the mid-1990s, resulting in his being acquitted of Aggravated Manslaughter but convicted of Reckless Manslaughter. The appellate division of the Public Defender’s office handled his post-conviction relief and won him a fourth trial. The fourth trial, more than a decade after the shooting, ended with Danny Bias again convicted of Reckless Manslaughter. By now, the state had changed its theory and was suggesting that Danny had pointed the gun at her head to frighten her, thinking one of the two empty chambers would come up under the firing pin, but instead discharging the gun. Danny Bias was sentenced to six years in the penitentiary, and served three before being paroled. He remains a convicted felon who cannot own a firearm.

This was not a case of a totally innocent handloader who went to prison. The argument he presented was that since it was a light load, there was no gunshot residue on the victim. Sorry, but no matter how light the load a person who shot themself would have GSR on them. He was not convicted because of handloads, he was convicted for shooting his wife. According to his defense his wife held the gun more 24 inches or more from herself when she committed suicide, so no GSR. Also notice no mention of angles of entry or any of that. It doesnt support the "evil handloads" argument.

Once again, please show a case where someone was inolved in a GOOD SHOOT situation(Somene broke in, attempted to kill them, tried attacking a child, etc) where someone was convicted for using handloads, not someone who killed his wife. You cant.
 
excerpt from the Bias case article:

"...the indications were that with the loads we believed to have been actually in the gun, the GSR would be so sparse and lightly deposited it was entirely possible none remained by the time the body was forensically examined the day after the shooting."
 
excerpt from the Bias case article:

"...the indications were that with the loads we believed to have been actually in the gun, the GSR would be so sparse and lightly deposited it was entirely possible none remained by the time the body was forensically examined the day after the shooting."

The handloaded 115-grain lead bullet punched into the left side of Lise's skull 2 1/2" behind and 1 1/4" above the ear canal
the fact she is right-handed and had the gun in her left hand.
A right handed woman held a pistol 24-30 inches from her head with her left hand and shot herself in a forward angle from behind and above with her left hand? The GSR isnt why he was convicted. This not an example of a good shoot and someone in trouble because of handloads.

link:
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BTT/is_181_30/ai_n26806104/?tag=content;col1
 
Have used HS-6 in in max .45 Auto loads, but do not remember/didn't note how "clean" it was. In .38 Special in particular, HS-6 leaves a ton of soft sandy grit that gets under the star on extraction. Hodgdon book max loads produced this same soft sandy grit (less than .38 Special) in my 9mm pistols and in a 16" UZI carbine, but in an UZI is no threat to reliability at all.
Galil5.56,
If you use a Magnum primer with HS-6 it cleans up very nicely even in cold weather. It is a Ball powder that's a little hard to ignite after all.
 
I think the point is that the crime lab's conclusion that the gun was 24-30" away from the victim's head was due to allegedly faulty GSR testing - testing that would likely have been accurate had factory ammo been used in the gun.

Bias told the investigators the revolver had been loaded with extra-light handloads.

During the grand jury inquest, the following exchange came with a senior investigator on the stand:

Prosecutor: "In fact, the uh, the rounds that were uh, taken that night and the rounds that were tested were rounds that Mr. Bias himself had reloaded, is that correct?"

Sergeant: "Yes, that's correct."

However, the test ammunition taken from the Bias home (not from the gun) and submitted to the crime lab for examination included cartridges with R-P headstamps. The loads in the gun, and in the box it was loaded from, were all in Federal +P cases.

Apparently, the handloads taken for testing were full power loads, NOT the light handloads Bias claimed were in the gun. The tested loads deposited visible gunshot residue until a distance of 50" was reached. Factory Federal 158-grain lead semi-wadcutter +P would leave visible GSR at that distance or greater.

No particulate matter, sooting, tattooing, or other evidence of GSR of any kind had been found on the victim's hair, head or clothing. The medical examiner took pains to measure the dead woman's arm's reach, and determined approximately 30" for that measurement. The investigators and experts were unanimous at the trial: she could not have shot herself without leaving gunshot residue.

However,

With duplicate loads in an exemplar six-inch Smith, Ayoob and Co. determined the light 2.3 grain Bullseye load with the 115-grain bullet would deposit GSR to perhaps three feet. At that distance, it left only about a dozen loose particles. At 24" there was still only loose particles, and even at 20" the powder would still be in very loose particles, with virtually nothing embedded.

Due to this testing and the realities of time, blood, etc., they concluded it was entirely possible Bias was telling the truth and the gun had been in his wife's hand when it discharged, and there were well-established reasons why no GSR might have been found on the body when the totality of the circumstances were considered.

I'm not saying he was innocent, just that if he was telling the truth, and had factory ammo been in the gun, the GSR would have been consistent with his story. I would want it to be consistent with my story, for sure - and I don't want to be the name on the next case y’all are discussing! :)

Also, let's not forget that we (at least I) should be unconcerned with saving $20 on ammo that's honestly no better than factory, when it could result in the possibility of this even being an issue in court, because if it's an issue, and even if we win, the defense of that point will cost you far, far more than you saved.
 
I think the point is that the crime lab's conclusion that the gun was 24-30" away from the victim's head was due to allegedly faulty GSR testing - testing that would likely have been accurate had factory ammo been used in the gun.

Bias told the investigators the revolver had been loaded with extra-light handloads.

During the grand jury inquest, the following exchange came with a senior investigator on the stand:

Prosecutor: "In fact, the uh, the rounds that were uh, taken that night and the rounds that were tested were rounds that Mr. Bias himself had reloaded, is that correct?"

Sergeant: "Yes, that's correct."

However, the test ammunition taken from the Bias home (not from the gun) and submitted to the crime lab for examination included cartridges with R-P headstamps. The loads in the gun, and in the box it was loaded from, were all in Federal +P cases.

Apparently, the handloads taken for testing were full power loads, NOT the light handloads Bias claimed were in the gun. The tested loads deposited visible gunshot residue until a distance of 50" was reached. Factory Federal 158-grain lead semi-wadcutter +P would leave visible GSR at that distance or greater.

No particulate matter, sooting, tattooing, or other evidence of GSR of any kind had been found on the victim's hair, head or clothing. The medical examiner took pains to measure the dead woman's arm's reach, and determined approximately 30" for that measurement. The investigators and experts were unanimous at the trial: she could not have shot herself without leaving gunshot residue.

However,

With duplicate loads in an exemplar six-inch Smith, Ayoob and Co. determined the light 2.3 grain Bullseye load with the 115-grain bullet would deposit GSR to perhaps three feet. At that distance, it left only about a dozen loose particles. At 24" there was still only loose particles, and even at 20" the powder would still be in very loose particles, with virtually nothing embedded.

Due to this testing and the realities of time, blood, etc., they concluded it was entirely possible Bias was telling the truth and the gun had been in his wife's hand when it discharged, and there were well-established reasons why no GSR might have been found on the body when the totality of the circumstances were considered.

I'm not saying he was innocent, just that if he was telling the truth, and had factory ammo been in the gun, the GSR would have been consistent with his story. I would want it to be consistent with my story, for sure - and I don't want to be the name on the next case y’all are discussing!

Also, let's not forget that we (at least I) should be unconcerned with saving $20 on ammo that's honestly no better than factory, when it could result in the possibility of this even being an issue in court, because if it's an issue, and even if we win, the defense of that point will cost you far, far more than you saved.

I do appreciate your opinion, I just disagree. I dont make my own ammo just to save money. I do it because I can trust my own ammo a lot more. Ever had a dud out of factory ammo? At least three or four times I have broken down a factory round to see why it didnt go bang and found no anvil in the primer. That would not happen with my ammo.

All that aside, I guess some of us would worry about such things as what happens if I have to use it, others wont. I am obviously one of those who wont. At least we both agree that having a gun when you need it is the most important part.
 
"kestak - What would be a good self-defense bullet in 9mm and 45ACP for me to reload?"

I would recommend Remington Golden Saber for good expansion and penetration.

Just remember that Golden Saber bullets are designed to enhance expansion for the standard left hand rifling in barrels (Some others like Glocks have right hand rifling).

MidwayUSA carries bulk Remington Golden Saber at a reasonable price: (example: $17 for 100 124 gr 9mm)
http://www.midwayusa.com/Search/#bulk remington golden sabre____-_1-2-4_8-16-32
 
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I would recommend Remington Golden Saber for good expansion and penetration.

I'm not arguing with you, but I thought I read that Remington GS were NOT all that good in the expansion department. Does someone have factual reference one way or the other?

I have a 500 bullet box that I've been using for gun/magazine testing.

Ken
 
Paints, as I mentioned in my post, Golden Saber bullets have "angled left hand twist" to the jacket petals to enhance expansion when fired from standard "left hand" rifled barrels (bullet rotates counter-clockwise).

If Golden Saber bullets are shot from "right hand" rifled barrels (such as Glock), clockwise rotation of the bullets defeats the left hand twist of the jacket petals and the bullets do not expand as well. For right hand twist rifled barrels, I would recommend the jacketed hollow point bullets that have non-angled jacket petals (basically any other jacketed hollow point bullet other than Golden Saber).

You can check the orientation of your rifling by looking down the barrel from the chamber end. Left hand twist (counter-clockwise) rifling is standard and right hand twist (clockwise) rifling is non-standard.

I do not load my factory barreled Glocks with Golden Saber (I have them loaded with factory JHPs from Federal/Winchester).

One solution I use for my Glocks is to have the factory "right hand twist" barrels replaced with Lone Wolf drop in standard "left hand twist" barrels ($99 from Cheaper Than Dirt). The Golden Saber bullets will work fine in these left hand twist rifled barrels.

The benefits of using standard Lone Wolf barrels are that the chambers fully support the case (no more bulged cases to resize :) ), I can comfortably shoot lead and moly coated lead bullets in the Lone Wolf barrels which have the standard land/sea rifling instead of Glock's polygonal rifling, and I also have the Lone Wolf 40 to 9mm conversion barrels so I can shoot 9mm out of my Glock 22/27 for cheaper practice.

FYI, I get the moly coated lead bullets from Precision Bullets out of Texas because they also bake their moly coating after tumble coating - very good price and free shipping (http://www.precisionbullets.com/products.html).

Update: Thanks to rcmodel, another lead bullet vendor cheaper than my current supplier: (Price + $10.85 for Shipping up to 2000 rounds and 5% discount for order over 12,000 rounds)
http://www.missouribullet.com/pricing.php
 
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I never knew that the Golden Sabre depended on the direction of rifling to "unscrew" upon impact. You got pictures?

Is "standard land/sea rifling" a new design? How does the salt water affect your bullets?
 
Jim,

Here's the excerpt from Remington website and closeup photos.

"Spiral nose-cut feature permits mushrooming at lower velocity without sacrificing penetration or terminal performance"

http://www.remington.com/products/ammunition/handgun/golden-saber-hpj.aspx


It's not that Golden Saber bullets won't mushroom shot out of right hand twist barrels, just not as effectively when shot out of left hand twist barrels at slower velocities (i.e. short barreled sub-compact pistols). I believe at higher velocities shot from full-size 4.4" - 5" barrels, expansion is less affected by the spiral cut. I carry Glock 27 sub-compact with me most of the time and short-barrel terminal performance is important to me. All of my pistols were loaded with Hydra-Shock before Remington released the Golden Saber - And I do like the Golden Saber performance (I believe better bullet expansion, retention and deeper penetration). That's why I went with Lone Wolf standard left hand twist barrel option for my Glock 22/27.

As to standard left hand twist rifling - It was developed in 1850s by British for large bore rifles to prevent rifles from tipping away from right-handed shooters. The left hand twist pushed the rifle towards the right-handed shooters and the left hand standard twist stuck. For short barreled pistols, this is not an issue. For some reason, domestic gun manufacturers (i.e. 1911 barrels) continued to use the standard left hand twist while European manufacturers (like Glock, XD, Beretta, H&K, etc.) use the right hand twist.

As to salt water affecting the brass jacket instead of copper, I do not have much data on that. I have competed with brass jacketed bullets from Montana Gold for 15 years now and have seen some surface discoloration from old rounds I forgot about in the garage, but they were similar to discoloration on old copper jacketed bullets. Perhaps someone else can shed some light on the affects of salt water on brass. Don't they use brass in sea bound boats/ships to minimize corrosion? IMHO


BTW, lower photo shows 45 Hydra-Shok to the left and 9mm Golden Saber to the right.

Golden_Saber_mud_test_250.jpg

p3at%20ammo%20tests.JPG


d0056023_4aacbccb0165c.jpg
 
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ljnowell, I appreciate your input as well. I've never had a factory centerfire dud that I can recall in the last 40 years. I've had one of my centerfire brass reloads fail that I recall. I understand our opinions vary; my belief was and is that most any brand name factory defense-type centerfire pistol ammo is AT LEAST as reliable as my handloads, even though I load one at a time and inspect each and every load multiple times. Having made that assumption, I'm sure y'all will understand the rest of my position.
 
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