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Semi-Auto .410 Pistol Grip Only * PGO * -- Does Anyone Make One??

Discussion in 'Shotguns' started by Mike1234567, Oct 24, 2011.

  1. Mike1234567

    Mike1234567 member

    Does anyone make a semi-auto PGO .410 smooth bore firearm?

    Since these are classified as "other" rather than shotguns then, the way I understand it, the barrels may be legally cut shorter than 18 inches provided the overall length is at least 26 inches and this does not require a tax stamp.

    IMHO, a .410 PGO shorty sure seems like a great HD firearm.

    BTW, I'm aware of Mossberg's PGO pump actions. I might go that route but I prefer a good semi-auto.

    ETA: I can't spend more than $1000. I want a .410 bore due to lesser recoil compared to 12ga or 20ga. I'll be adding a light/laser combo for sight acquisition because I'm sure I'll be watching the threat instead of my sights. If the laser fails I'm sure I'll be point-shooting.
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2011
  2. Fred Fuller

    Fred Fuller Moderator Emeritus

    The majority of semiauto shotgun designs out there require a bolt return spring assembly that is nested in the stock behind the receiver. To the best of my possibly scanty knowledge, no one in the USA has ever manufactured a semiauto PGO AOW shotgun in .410, which is what it would take to get a Federally legal gun with a barrel shorter than 18". And even that might not be legal in all states/local jurisdictions. BTW, the AOW still requires a tax stamp, but it's only $5. See the NFA Forum here at THR for more...

    So as far as I know, the only option you have for what you want is to build a SBS (short barrel shotgun) with the appropriate paperwork ($200 tax stamp, where available).

    a .410 PGO shorty sure seems like a great HD firearm.

    Not to me, but I'm beginning to wonder if I really know anything at all about shotguns any more, or any other firearm for that matter. Or whether I've been transported to some kind of alternate dimension or something. Wait... is that Rod Serling's voice I hear?
  3. Mike1234567

    Mike1234567 member

    LOL, Lee!! So, as far as you know, my only option is a Mossberg pump action? There are no domestically made PGO shot shell semi-auto firearms? BTW, I could opt for 20ga but the .410 bore would be much easier to handle as a PGO.

    ETA: And don't touch your television set. Oh, wait, that's "The Outer Limits".
  4. Fred Fuller

    Fred Fuller Moderator Emeritus

    There was a company (Sage International) that did a PGO conversion of the Remington 1100 some years back, it was called a Sidewinder IIRC. But it would have to be a SBS to be shorter than 18" of barrel. And as far as I know they never did any in .410.

    High Standard used their own Supermatic design to build the Model 10A and 10B series of bullpup semiautos because it was about the only semiauto design at the time that did not have a bolt return spring. The Al Crouch-developed prototype for the design (1957) was based on the Remington Model 58, primarily because that design lacked a bolt return spring and was widely available (though limited to only three shots). About the only other semiauto action choice at the time that did not have a bolt return spring was the Sears/JC Higgins Model 60, which looks suspiciously like a High Standard Supermatic.
  5. Mike1234567

    Mike1234567 member

    Okay... So I'm limited to a pump action for a PGO shot shell firearm. I was afraid of that. I think a semi-auto 18" is better for HD than a 15.5" pump. Maybe six one... or a half dozen the other.
  6. DPris

    DPris Well-Known Member

    A very poor choice for a home def...for ANY purpose, really, beyond just making noise.
  7. Mike1234567

    Mike1234567 member

    A semi-auto .410 shot shell firearm is a "poor choice" for home defense??? Please elaborate.

    FIVETWOSEVEN Well-Known Member

    Are your hallways that small that you would need a gun that small? Your better off with a proper handgun if thats the case. Take it from the experts such as Lee.
  9. Youngster

    Youngster Well-Known Member

    I've seen "Krink" style .410 Saigas from custom outfits, a PGO might be doable, however I don't see what you're gaining with that configuration.
  10. Rail Driver

    Rail Driver Well-Known Member

    You know, if you want a short barrel just spend the $200 on a stamp and make what you want when it's approved... it's not as difficult as it seems, and you avoid the hassle of having to call your lawyer to come explain the law to some unaware LEO that just arrested you for what he believes to be a weapons violation and you can put a stock on it if you want rather than having to keep it PGO forever.
  11. 788Ham

    788Ham Well-Known Member

    Sorry guys, I'm not trying to be dense here, but the way these PGO, AOW's are thrown out on here, I'm in need of a little edumacation on these!

  12. The Sarge

    The Sarge Well-Known Member

    Saiga .410
  13. Fred Fuller

    Fred Fuller Moderator Emeritus

  14. oneounceload

    oneounceload member

    Mossberg sells their PGO guns - they can be converted to AOW since they never had a shoulder stock on them; otherwise they would be a SBS - short barrel shotgun

    The difference is in the price of the stamp.
  15. ugaarguy

    ugaarguy Moderator Staff Member

    If my understanding of the NFA is correct, some clarification is needed. The tax stamp for a Form 1 (that's the form used to get approval to make the NFA item, even if that making is simply converting a Title I firearm into an NFA regulated Title II firearm) is $200, regardless of which type of NFA firearm one wishes to make. The tax stamp for a Form 4, transfer of an NFA regulated item, is $200 for SBR/SBS/Sound Suppressor/transferable machinegun, but only $5 for an AOW.

    In other words, if you're legally doing it yourself the tax to make an AOW or an SBS is the same. The transfer tax on one already made by an SOT manufacturer is what's different.
  16. Mike1234567

    Mike1234567 member

    Since I prefer a semi-auto and removable magazines then maybe I'll just pay for the $200 stamp and build a PGO .410 shorty Saiga. It just sticks in my craw to pay that darned tax... and the 4-6 month wait time is no joy either. I already have a Saiga .410, BTW.
  17. ForumSurfer

    ForumSurfer Well-Known Member

  18. Mike1234567

    Mike1234567 member

    ForumSurfer... Thanks for the links. I'll read them thoroughly. I'm sure there will be a couple of things debated such as recoil recovery and aiming. I don't think recoil will be a problem with a .410 bore and I'll be using a light/laser combo.

    Off to do some reading...
  19. pikid89

    pikid89 Well-Known Member

    you'd be surprised what kind of recoil the .410 can generate, especially in lightweight guns

    Id bet $$$ that even, I an untrained shotgunner (other than clays and stuff), could shoot a course faster with my 12 gauge duck gun, than a PGO .410

    with as many posts as you have, I would have thought that you've been around long enough to know that PGO's don't get no love around here, and for good reason
  20. Carl N. Brown

    Carl N. Brown Well-Known Member

    There is an ATF tech letter to that effect. I would not bet on ATF not changing its mind in the future, though.

    Shotguns pistol grip only (PGO) from the factory were not designed or redesigned to be fired from the shoulder, therefore they are not a "long gun" under the GCA or on the 4473: they are "other" weapon just like a raw AR receiver that could be built as a rifle or a pistol.

    If you take a PGO and install a buttstock it becomes re-designed to be fired from the shoulder and magically is transformed to a conventional "long gun" and can wear either a pistol grip or a buttstock as long as barrel is over 18" and overall is over 26". For that versatility I would opt to keep a PGO barrel length 18" or over.

    As to the opening post, the local gun shops run from sporting good stores to self-defense to class 3 either "cop shops" or NFA collectors. I have not seen a PGO .410 semi-auto, although I have not been looking that hard. The PGOs I have seen in .410 are all pump action.

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