Semi-automatic assault rifles in self-defense, such as AK-47 and AR-15?
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GuyWithQuestions
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Since AK-47s are technically assault rifles, and the rifles modeled after the real ones aren't selective fire but semi-auto only mode, what could I call the civilian model to still be correct in my wording? Or does it not matter with the wording to call a civilian semi-auto mode an AK-47? Even though most people just call them AK-47s, I was just wondering.
GuyWithQuestions
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LOL
Guy,
Having obtained three AKs & four ARs here in Utah over the years, they're just rifles as far as the state cares.
There's no additional paperwork or legal requirements anywhere in the state that I'm aware of.
Don't worry about terminology, just ask for an AK-47
The WASRs are entry level, usually functional, but sorta bottom of the barrel.
One on-line dealer that seems to have a good rep (you can order one & have it sent to a dealer near you) is Atlantic Firearms.
Another choice closer to home, up in Ogden, is Impact Guns. Both carry decent AKs.
If you're not already aware, the AK will not be quite as accurate as an AR, but it should be perfectly adequate for defense & hunting inside 100 yards, possibly 200 yards if you get a good one.
And, while not an across the board comparison that'd hold exactly true in every situation with every bullet & all barriers, I've tested 9mm ball & .223 ball in my penetration box with 20 one-inch pine board squares lined up. The 9mm ball travelled farther than the .223, both fired through 16-inch ARs at the same distance. The 9 kept on nose-first, the .223 tumbled & came to rest intact with the nose pointing back toward me.
Denis
Having obtained three AKs & four ARs here in Utah over the years, they're just rifles as far as the state cares.
There's no additional paperwork or legal requirements anywhere in the state that I'm aware of.
Don't worry about terminology, just ask for an AK-47
The WASRs are entry level, usually functional, but sorta bottom of the barrel.
One on-line dealer that seems to have a good rep (you can order one & have it sent to a dealer near you) is Atlantic Firearms.
Another choice closer to home, up in Ogden, is Impact Guns. Both carry decent AKs.
If you're not already aware, the AK will not be quite as accurate as an AR, but it should be perfectly adequate for defense & hunting inside 100 yards, possibly 200 yards if you get a good one.
And, while not an across the board comparison that'd hold exactly true in every situation with every bullet & all barriers, I've tested 9mm ball & .223 ball in my penetration box with 20 one-inch pine board squares lined up. The 9mm ball travelled farther than the .223, both fired through 16-inch ARs at the same distance. The 9 kept on nose-first, the .223 tumbled & came to rest intact with the nose pointing back toward me.
Denis
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There's your first mistake.
I have whitetail deer in my freezer. They were taken by my Romanian SAR-1 AK clone. We also have deer hunters up here who fill their tags using AR-15 variants - nothing illegal about it, and they do a fine job.
Military-issue rifles and rifles patterned after same have been used by their owners for many, many years to hunt supper. My grandfather's Krag, father's Springfield, my M14NM and AK, they're all just fine for the job. In today's twisted vernacular, they were all "assault" rifles before they went to the deer woods.
IOW, a hunting rifle is quite simply the rifle you hunt with, nothing more, nothing less. Google "Jim Zumbo" for more info on the concept.
I have whitetail deer in my freezer. They were taken by my Romanian SAR-1 AK clone. We also have deer hunters up here who fill their tags using AR-15 variants - nothing illegal about it, and they do a fine job.
Military-issue rifles and rifles patterned after same have been used by their owners for many, many years to hunt supper. My grandfather's Krag, father's Springfield, my M14NM and AK, they're all just fine for the job. In today's twisted vernacular, they were all "assault" rifles before they went to the deer woods.
IOW, a hunting rifle is quite simply the rifle you hunt with, nothing more, nothing less. Google "Jim Zumbo" for more info on the concept.
hamourkiller
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Any carbine sized rifle will be effective in home defense. Marlin / Winchester lever guns come to mind. Some come in pistol calibers .357/.41mag/.44mag and these average 1700 fps or so with heavy bullets.
The 30/30 class rifles are a large step up in power, 150 gr bullet @ 2300 t0 2400 fps or 170 gr bullet @ 2100 to 2200 fps.
Just something to consider other than the ar-15 / ak-47 formats.
If distance is involved in the home defense situation, almost any hunting rifle will reach out and touch them. The lethality of modern hunting cartridges has to be seen to be apreciated.
What ever rifle you choose, get good with it.
The 30/30 class rifles are a large step up in power, 150 gr bullet @ 2300 t0 2400 fps or 170 gr bullet @ 2100 to 2200 fps.
Just something to consider other than the ar-15 / ak-47 formats.
If distance is involved in the home defense situation, almost any hunting rifle will reach out and touch them. The lethality of modern hunting cartridges has to be seen to be apreciated.
What ever rifle you choose, get good with it.
GuyWithQuestions
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Gewehr98,
I know that people hunt with them, and I believe in other places I worded it "I don't want to look at a typical hunting rifle." I know your typical hunting rifle is going to be different than another's. I was wondering how I'd say what I'm looking for without saying "semi-automatic version of an assault rifle" (since by definition it can't be selective fire if it's semi only)? If I say "rifle", there's many many rifles a gun shop could show me that aren't a semi modeled after a previous assault rifle. I'm planning on talking to others when shopping around for these rifles before buying one. If I have to say "semi-automatic rifle with detachable magazine with intermediate caliber" in each or every other sentence that I say, that could become a mouthful. That's why I'm looking for the wording.
I know that people hunt with them, and I believe in other places I worded it "I don't want to look at a typical hunting rifle." I know your typical hunting rifle is going to be different than another's. I was wondering how I'd say what I'm looking for without saying "semi-automatic version of an assault rifle" (since by definition it can't be selective fire if it's semi only)? If I say "rifle", there's many many rifles a gun shop could show me that aren't a semi modeled after a previous assault rifle. I'm planning on talking to others when shopping around for these rifles before buying one. If I have to say "semi-automatic rifle with detachable magazine with intermediate caliber" in each or every other sentence that I say, that could become a mouthful. That's why I'm looking for the wording.
benEzra
Moderator Emeritus
My first choice for a defensive carbine would be something in .223/5.56x45mm, because there is a better variety of defensive ammo available. A 16" barreled .223 AK with a Kobra optic would be my first choice in that role (just because I like the AK platform), followed closely by a 16" barreled AR with an Eotech or red dot (probably a Rock River Elite CAR A4 or something similar).
Putting a light on the forend may also be useful.
Putting a light on the forend may also be useful.
My point is...
Why the "assault" nomenclature, at all?
It's just a semi-auto rifle, period. So is a Ruger Mini-14, Remington 7400, Browning BAR, M1 Garand, etc. Is there a stigma attached to the latter rifles? Wording it any other way only plays into the hands of the VPC folks and their ilk who invented the "assault weapon" term to begin with, and plays law-abiding gun owners against each other simply because of the cosmetic differences in their chosen firearms. I say cosmetic because true full-auto military (NFA) firearms are few and far between in the civilian gun ownership world.
I don't know how to state it more simply than that. Were you hoping we here at THR would refer to them as icky-poo evil bullet hoses meant for killing babies?
Why the "assault" nomenclature, at all?
It's just a semi-auto rifle, period. So is a Ruger Mini-14, Remington 7400, Browning BAR, M1 Garand, etc. Is there a stigma attached to the latter rifles? Wording it any other way only plays into the hands of the VPC folks and their ilk who invented the "assault weapon" term to begin with, and plays law-abiding gun owners against each other simply because of the cosmetic differences in their chosen firearms. I say cosmetic because true full-auto military (NFA) firearms are few and far between in the civilian gun ownership world.
I don't know how to state it more simply than that. Were you hoping we here at THR would refer to them as icky-poo evil bullet hoses meant for killing babies?
General Geoff
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I ask to look at the evil black rifles, no lie. Always gets a grin from the folks behind the counter.
GuyWithQuestions
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Gewehr98
Let's change the nomenclature from "assault" to "military appearance". The reason for "assault" is I associate that with intermediate caliber, vs "battle rife" caliber, but "military" might work better.
I particularly am interested in getting a semi-auto rifle that's modeled after a military rifle. I want recreational shooting with style, while at the same time something that'll be decent in home/self-defense so that's why the title has that wording. Just like kids get certain airsoft guns that model certain firearms, I want something with style because of what it's modeled after but at the same time practical. Semi-auto rifles in general are nice, but what if you want something modeled after military types? I also know that they would make the Brady Bunch mad at the same time, even though it's just a "rifle", which I wouldn't mind causing more stress to the Brady Bunch. I don't see these rifles any more evil than any other rifle, and a rifle is a firearm, which aren't bad in themselves and are just tools like any other tool out there. I just wanted to know what you would call them and still be correct if looking for one at the store? Or do they not really have any "correct" names other than "semi-auto rifle with a detachable magazine modeled after a certain military rifle"? "Military-style semi-automatic rifle"? I was just wondering.
Let's change the nomenclature from "assault" to "military appearance". The reason for "assault" is I associate that with intermediate caliber, vs "battle rife" caliber, but "military" might work better.
I particularly am interested in getting a semi-auto rifle that's modeled after a military rifle. I want recreational shooting with style, while at the same time something that'll be decent in home/self-defense so that's why the title has that wording. Just like kids get certain airsoft guns that model certain firearms, I want something with style because of what it's modeled after but at the same time practical. Semi-auto rifles in general are nice, but what if you want something modeled after military types? I also know that they would make the Brady Bunch mad at the same time, even though it's just a "rifle", which I wouldn't mind causing more stress to the Brady Bunch. I don't see these rifles any more evil than any other rifle, and a rifle is a firearm, which aren't bad in themselves and are just tools like any other tool out there. I just wanted to know what you would call them and still be correct if looking for one at the store? Or do they not really have any "correct" names other than "semi-auto rifle with a detachable magazine modeled after a certain military rifle"? "Military-style semi-automatic rifle"? I was just wondering.
Firepower!
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Semi Auto is excellant for defense. In fact in burst fire you only hit one or two as the desired target (especially the case with AK). I say semi auto AR15 by Bushmaster would be best for you.
benEzra
Moderator Emeritus
That's caused by some out-of-spec made fire control parts that Century (importer of civilian AK's) used to use to meet the required number of U.S. parts. There's a do-it-yourself fix if you're handy with tools:
http://www.gunsnet.net/Linx310/slapfix.htm
A simpler fix, and one that will probably give you a better trigger pull to boot, is to buy a new Tapco G2 trigger group for around $30 (get the single hook or double hook version depending on whether your rifle has the single hook or double hook):
Single hook: http://www.tapco.com/proddesc.aspx?Id=7f8c130c-3761-48e3-9560-894e018c8330
Double hook: http://www.tapco.com/proddesc.aspx?id=f18e5260-3196-4c56-9af4-f8538128606e
The newer WASR's come with the G2 trigger group already installed.
stubbicatt
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The 556 round with TAP ammo is probably the best choice for the purposes you described. I haven't done penetration tests with the Hornady TAP in 7.62x39, so I cannot comment on that.
The 40 cal I tested on water jugs went through several, while the Hornady TAP in 556 went into one, which exploded, and a tiny bb sized fragment went into the next water jug. My test is completely unscientific, but it satisfied my curiosity. 556 is my HD choice.
YMMV.
BTW, glad somone posted that link to the Oly website with the penetration tests, as that pretty much mirrored my limited experience doing this test.
As far as 00 buckshot in a 12 ga, I have a friend who was with a law enforcement agency where 00 buck was shot at a badguy. Most of the pellets hit the dude, but one at least did not. It traveled 1/4 mile, penetrated the exterior and interior walls of a lady's house, through the thin steel of a refrigerator door and came to rest inside the refrigerator. This is a fact which I don't question, and is one reason why, if I use a 12 ga, I use 0000 Buck instead, or #4 shot. Maybe it makes a difference, maybe it doesn't, but I like my neighbors and have no desire to accidentally execute any of them while trying to stop a home invasion or the like.
YMMv
The 40 cal I tested on water jugs went through several, while the Hornady TAP in 556 went into one, which exploded, and a tiny bb sized fragment went into the next water jug. My test is completely unscientific, but it satisfied my curiosity. 556 is my HD choice.
YMMV.
BTW, glad somone posted that link to the Oly website with the penetration tests, as that pretty much mirrored my limited experience doing this test.
As far as 00 buckshot in a 12 ga, I have a friend who was with a law enforcement agency where 00 buck was shot at a badguy. Most of the pellets hit the dude, but one at least did not. It traveled 1/4 mile, penetrated the exterior and interior walls of a lady's house, through the thin steel of a refrigerator door and came to rest inside the refrigerator. This is a fact which I don't question, and is one reason why, if I use a 12 ga, I use 0000 Buck instead, or #4 shot. Maybe it makes a difference, maybe it doesn't, but I like my neighbors and have no desire to accidentally execute any of them while trying to stop a home invasion or the like.
YMMv
MD_Willington
Member
Semi Auto Assault Rifle misnomer!
How about not using the grabbers catch phrase and just calling them, modern gas operated firearms etcetera...
Sure you could use an AR of AK clone, but on the same token I could use a BAR or 750, 7400... similar operation but they don't get as bad a reputation as the clones...
{/rant-off
How about not using the grabbers catch phrase and just calling them, modern gas operated firearms etcetera...
Sure you could use an AR of AK clone, but on the same token I could use a BAR or 750, 7400... similar operation but they don't get as bad a reputation as the clones...
{/rant-off
bhk
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Me, I think the term 'military-style semi auto' is a good discriptor. It quickly separates them from 'hunting style' semi autos. No doubt, many ARs are used for hunting, but they are definitely have a military heritage (unlike the hunting semis now offered by Remington and Browning). To say they are all the same thing is really kidding ourselves. It would be kind of like saying a Jeep Rubicon and a Corvette are the same thing because when you push your foot on the pedal they both go. The term assault rifle needs to be buried deep.
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GuyWithQuestions
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I just brought up "military-style semi-automatic rifle" because the U.S. Department of Justice classifies AK-47s and AR-15s as "military-style semi-automatics" in their statistics reports. So I was checking with THR to see if that's correct terminology so when I go the firearm shops or discuss with people, I don't have to have a mouthful or confuse them with other types of semi-auto rifles. I also want to make sure I don't use any prejudice wording, even though technically I do want to make the Brady Bunch pee their pants with whatever I do decide to buy.
"I would like to look at something that would cause Sarah Brady to pee in her diaper while making Barbara Boxer and Feinstein lose control of their bowels...and (importantly)...rendering Hillary Clinton completely speechless." Maybe in black or od green..perhaps.
Rifleman 173
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The new catch phrase being used for EBRs is: "Sport Utility Rifle" or SUR. It kind of fits better than any other phrase to identify what we shoot and how we shoot. Besides, it throws off the anti-gun nuts when you use that wording. 
TexasRifleman
Moderator Emeritus
So now we need Compact SURs for things in 5.56 and Full Size SURs for .308?
I can dig it. What about pistol caliber carbines? Crossovers....
This car thing could really confuse them. If we can find a way to make them sound "green" we'd really be onto something.
How can we work "hybrid" into it somehow.......?
OK, if you have a brass catcher on your SUR then you are into recycling and are therefore "Eco Friendly".
This has potential....
Who would want to ban something that is made from recycled material, that is eco friendly, and available to the masses?
I can dig it. What about pistol caliber carbines? Crossovers....
This car thing could really confuse them. If we can find a way to make them sound "green" we'd really be onto something.
How can we work "hybrid" into it somehow.......?
OK, if you have a brass catcher on your SUR then you are into recycling and are therefore "Eco Friendly".
This has potential....
Who would want to ban something that is made from recycled material, that is eco friendly, and available to the masses?
GuyWithQuestions
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What type of AK-47's would you recommend?
I've been thinking about either an AK-47 or an AR-15, but I think I may want to start out with an AK-47. What types of AK-47's would one recommend? The price range that I'm thinking about is $500. I was looking at gunbroker.com and there are a lot of Saigas AK-47's. What's the difference between the main types of AK-47's?
I've been thinking about either an AK-47 or an AR-15, but I think I may want to start out with an AK-47. What types of AK-47's would one recommend? The price range that I'm thinking about is $500. I was looking at gunbroker.com and there are a lot of Saigas AK-47's. What's the difference between the main types of AK-47's?
An AR is an excellent home defense choice. 5.56mm has less potential penetration than most handgun rounds (of course, there is randomness in anything, it could penetrate a ton of walls or only one or two). It also has much more power than any handgun round. You have 30rnd mags standard and much better retention....
Atlantic Firearms
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On the AK47 thing you may want to visit our web site www.atlanticfirearms.com we carry the widest selection of AK rifles on the web & this would give you a fairly good idea of what is out there and base prices , this is not aimed at selling you one but to give you a idea of what is out there .If you have any questions please feel free to ask.
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