Service Rifle Poll

[Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow]

I gotta go with XCR also.

armoredman - dude; DUDE!

 

[C-grunt]

FN M-16. Used them in the Army and had a DMR version for my 05 vacation to Iraq. Great rifle. Accurate, reliable and pretty light compared to some.

 

[Balog]

FN M-16. Used them in the Army and had a DMR version for my 05 vacation to Iraq. Great rifle. Accurate, reliable and pretty light compared to some.

That was not my experience during my own time in Iraq. Don't want to start an argument, merely pointing that out.

 

[C-grunt]

The average FMJ round for the military's 5.56x45mm round (I simply use that as an example because the military has more experience with the round than any civilian shooter) is the 62gr SS109, or M855 I believe. It has a "green tip" which allows it to punch through cover much more easily than its predecessor, the 55gr M193. However, that same ability to punch through 1/4in steel plates means that when you engage a target with the 5.56x45mm's standard FMJ round you are simply punching .223 caliber holes through the target...

Shadow Man... the 62gr "green tip" still does yaw and shatter in soft tissue. Might not do it as reliably as the old M193 but from my experience it works really well. From my two deployments I have seen some really really nasty wounds from the M855.

In fact I have never seen a .223 caliber exit wound.

Personally I think the military going to a heavier bullet, 70+ grain, would be a good choice for more accuracy and reliable yawing at longer ranges.

 

[blackops]

M4 in CQB; M14 in open areas.

+1

I do like the XCR and SIG, but they just haven't been proven fully reliable. The M4 and M14 are proven.

 

[happygeek]

I own an AR (but in 22LR, not 5.56), a Sig 556, and a M1A. My favorite would have to be the M1A, although the 22LR AR is a LOT of fun to shoot and do CQB stuff with. The M1A is the first rifle I ever owned, and I still love that thing to death. It's the one rifle I own that's more accurate than I am. Just tonight, I was at the range shooting the M1A and Sig 556 at 200 yard man size targets. Same shooter, same position (prone with sandbags), iron sights on both. I did considerably better with the M1A, although at 150 and 100 yards there wasn't a noticeable difference in accuracy (but even the 22LR AR does good at 100 yards). I once told the wife I was more accurate with the M1A because the muzzle is already half way to the target.

On a side note, it sucks how early it gets dark now. I would have shot even better with the M1A but it's hard to see that skinny national match front sight post in low light conditions.

 

[fugi]

I'm with Isher on the VZ-58. That or a FAL. I'm real fond of 7.62s and I don't like rotating locking bolts, even if it's fairly simple like the AKs. tilting bolt or breech block all the way for me. why? because forcing nondescript crud out of a magwell or receiver with the bolt or breech block is easier than forcing it out of a barrel extension with the bolt in the way by means of mashing the lugs in there as it really has nowhere to easily go. the FAL with sand cuts on the bolts, either commonwealth or israeli style, seem to work well for smaller particulate that doesn't originate from the operating of the firearm. Both the VZ and FAL are short stroke, mitigating fouling from firing as well. and they're purdy.

 

[armoredman]

Dr Winslow, what, WHAT?

 

[Shadow Man]

Shadow Man... the 62gr "green tip" still does yaw and shatter in soft tissue. Might not do it as reliably as the old M193 but from my experience it works really well. From my two deployments I have seen some really really nasty wounds from the M855.

In fact I have never seen a .223 caliber exit wound.

I guess we've had some different experiences then. Care to leave it at that? I don't want to get in-depth into "this round does this, and this round does that." All I know is that from my personal experience, the 5.56x45mm's 62gr M855 round failed me when I needed it most. I'm glad it worked for you. It didn't for me, but that's neither here nor there. Call me old fashioned, but I'm just generally happier when I'm trusting my life to a weapon firing bullets 100grs or heavier. However, that is simply my opinion. Take it as you wish.

 

[Balog]

The problem with yawing is that it is so conditional. It only works at no less than X and no more than Y yards, where both X and Y are affected by a huge number of variables: barrel length, physical build of the target, body armour or no, penetrate cover first or not etc etc. It can work well, but is not reliable enough for my taste. Ymmv imho etc.

 

[Shadow Man]

And variables are the fiber of the world Balog. My mileage did not vary, just so you know.

On another note, maybe I didn't see it, but what would you chose, out of the given list?

 

[Balog]

I think I did mention it, actually. Kvar converted Saiga from the list (and a bunch of 20 round mags so I can get a decent prone/use low cover). In real life, either the Kvar or a stainless .357 lever gun for cowboy logistics. Been trying to lower my caliber footprint. I figure a lever with a good shooter can do most of the tasks an AK can, just to a shorter range. Only area it lacks in is protracted firefights at close range. Since I've been in more than enough of those to last me a lifetime, I lean towards ye olde lever. Plus it's less "threatening" looking to a jury if I ever used it in self defense. Honestly the only reasons I want an AK are possible disasters leading to riots, and to piss off gun control people.

 

[InkEd]

A leveractionis an interesting choice. I would be concerned with reload speed though and the ability to reach out and touch someone. Interesting choice nonetheless.

 

[Shadow Man]

Somehow I missed that Balog. Good choice, in the right hands a leveraction is as useful as any "black" gun. But that's the key, really: it's not the weapon, but the operator. Too often I think that is overlooked. Some of the gent's I had the honor of playing with would have been just as deadly with a Kentucky rifle as with the newest production from HK and FN.

In a perfect world, I'd love to have a Valmet Rk-95...but alas, the world is not perfect and I'm not made of money.

 

[Balog]

There are trade offs with anything, it's true. I don't plan on needing to reload in most situations (aside from riots), and I do not personally see much non-tikiwiki need for >150 yard engagement. And if I need to shoot something past there, that's why I have a scoped bolt action. But that's just me.

 

[Shadow Man]

Reload speed on a lever action should be fairly fast. Also, you can top off your tube mag as needed, unlike with a weapon utilizing a detachable box magazine. And in a full-blown SHTF scenario, unless things go horribly awry, you shouldn't find yourself in a protracted firefight anyway...at least if you're smart about it. The shorter, handier length of most lever action carbines is another plus, as well.

The key to any weapon system though is proficency. The priciest AR tricked out with grips, lasers, lights and scopes is useless if the operator is unfamiliar with the weapon's operation and capabilities.