Shooting a LEO in self defense??? Hypothetical

[doc2rn]

Didn't I just hear about this with the guy who shot 2 LEO durring a no Knock raid? Hit them with 2 out of 3 12g rds and LEOs lit off like 30 rds and hit nada.

Just because they are LEO does not mean they dont have everyday problems. We just had one LEO (retired) shoot an LEO (active) for sleeping with his separated wife. Police requested and got a gag order on the media. They are human, and I have worked with LEOs enough to be well versed on the blue wall.

 

[siglite]

The only time I can imagine me defending myself against an LE would be an immediate entry warrant served on the wrong residence. Hulk smash my door in the middle of the night, I'm sending rounds through it. There's no time for positive identification on immediate entry warrants. I hate those things. But that's the only time I can imagine ever "defending" myself against an LEO. Outside of that situation, which I have no reason to believe will EVER occur here, I'd save it for court.

 

[Lew]

The only time I can imagine me defending myself against an LE would be an immediate entry warrant served on the wrong residence. Hulk smash my door in the middle of the night, I'm sending rounds through it. There's no time for positive identification on immediate entry warrants. I hate those things.

That's what really scares me. I've played it out in my head many times. Door busts in. Dark shadows start running and screaming around my house. Shots are exchanged. There's a lull... "I'm calling the cops so you better ****!" ..."This is the Police! Throw down your weapon!" "What??! ...Prove it!" Now I'm a nutcase and end up in federal pen.

Or maybe I'd kill an honorable peace officer just in time for his partner to put three in my chest.

No-knocks are no-win.

 

[nwilliams]

The only time I can imagine me defending myself against an LE would be an immediate entry warrant served on the wrong residence. Hulk smash my door in the middle of the night, I'm sending rounds through it. There's no time for positive identification on immediate entry warrants. I hate those things. But that's the only time I can imagine ever "defending" myself against an LEO. Outside of that situation, which I have no reason to believe will EVER occur here, I'd save it for court.

Reminds me of what happened here in Arizona a while back that actually provoked some law changes. Of course it involved bounty hunters not cops, anyway interesting story and you can read the details here.....
http://www.prisonactivist.org/pipermail/prisonact-list/1998-October/002495.html

 

[Kipling79]

Unless in extreme circumstances, any reaction to official police conduct must be completely passive.

Even if you are innocent and being unlawfully "roughed up" by a LEO, the courts expect you to endure and refrain from any physical resistance... and leave the punishment to the court.

I would imagine this is especially so in situations where firearms are involved, and any resistance would be legally problematic as well as dangerous to your health.

Even if one felt justified to use threat of deadly force against a LEO in a private confrontation... the burden of proof would be insurmountable (word v. word). And such a threat might be the straw that causes the LEO to pull his own trigger on you.

If it was not a private confrontation, any do-gooder or honest LEO who witnesses the confrontation would be justified in ending your life in protection of the other LEO... if they reasonably believed his life was in immediate danger.

The only circumstances I would personally use force against a LEO would be extreme acts of bad faith.. rape of another (or myself *shudder*) or an IMMEDIATE & REAL threat to my life (if i am innocent) or that of another innocent.

 

[mrkwns]

Didn't I just hear about this with the guy who shot 2 LEO durring a no Knock raid? Hit them with 2 out of 3 12g rds and LEOs lit off like 30 rds and hit nada.

And no charges were filed....

http://www.startribune.com/local/12616796.html

 

[DoubleTapDrew]

When I took my CHL class the officer teaching it told the class about a case where a CHL holder did shoot and kill a plainclothes LEO who had chased and tackled a suspect and was now either beating him or holding his gun on him, don't remember which. The CHL holder thought the roles were reversed. A sad situation. He said no charges were filed. It was an honest, albeit horrible, mistake.

 

[Jaenak]

Even if you do shoot a LEO in self defense, no one will believe you. Well, they might believe you but the people who matter won't support you. You'd better have ALOT of damn good witnesses!! LEOs always stick together, believe one another and support one another. Lawyers and judges will always side with the LEO as well. If you get into a self defense scenario with an LEO, then run away and let another LEO shoot the bezerk LEO. If an LEO has to restrain a fellow LEO, than the LEO in question will not be untouchable but if you have to restrain the bezerk LEO, than you will be the bad guy regardless of what happened or who saw what. After all, you're trying to convince a whole group of people that their long standing good friend, buddy and trusted ally is everything but. They won't believe you. :banghead:

 

[barneyfife.357]

I am not sure if it was covered earlier, but what in self defense no matter the attacker, are they not usually "on a rampage"? or cracked out? or alcohol or some sort of somthing involved? speaking from the justice side, cops are not immune to being drunk; however, most of the one's I work with are smart enough not to drive or use their weapons when intoxicated

 

[KBintheSLC]

I think the only time would be if they illegally entered my home. Say they mistakenly kicked in my door instead of the drug dealer down the street. In this case, if they failed to knock and show a warrant before entering, they could expect to be fired on heavily by all members of my household. I/we might likely end up dead, but my family could live nicely from the lawsuits that would follow.

Besides that, maybe if it was the cop on Pulp Fiction.

In reality, I can not foresee justification in shooting an officer for any probable reason.

 

[Werewolf]

The kicker is, if the officer identifies himself as an officer and acts in an official capacity then the law I posted applies. Also all of the other laws, battery being a felony, etc. kick in then too.

And this is what makes the IL law so heinous...

even if he believes that the arrest is unlawful and the arrest in fact is unlawful.

Even the UCMJ says it is OK to disobey an unlawful order.

If a police officer is making an unlawful arrest, knows it and is using force to an extent that a reasonable person would consider their life in jeopardy, then why should the police officer get protection that a citizen does not?

 

[basicblur]

I’m flying on memory here, but…
In VA a few years back, we had a number of cops from different agencies pull one o’ them 3am drug raids on a house. When they entered the house, the (alleged) perp shot and killed one of the officers. When the homeowner went to trial the verdict hinged on whether the police announced themselves as such or not. The police said they did, the homeowner said they did not, and the jury agreed with the homeowner. The homeowner got off on the shooting, but I think he may have pulled time for drugs or something else? (Don’t remember if they actually found drugs in his house during the raid or not).
BTW, true or not, my boss at work said he knew one of the officers involved in the raid and said he told him nobody yelled POLICE when they hit the house.

My question/worry is…I’ve seen numerous shows where the police use various methods (flash grenades etc) to disorient the subject during a raid. While I see/have no reason for the police to raid my house (other than mistaken identity), if I’m sleeping and someone crashed into my house while using some method to disorient me…hey, I may come out shooting also, even if they are yelling POLICE at the top of their lungs! Heck…they just did something to disorient you, then expect you to wake up, overlook the flash grenade (or ?), and sort out the word POLICE possibly being yelled by a number of officers? (It may sound like unintelligible garbage iff’n they ain’t all yelling in unison).

At’s pretty long odds in my book…and I gotta tell ya…if I was on a jury when something like this happened…the homeowner is probably gonna walk.

BTW…sounds to me like the raid they pulled could have been handled like the Waco situation should have been. I remember seeing the local sheriff on TV telling that all they had to do was let him know they wanted Koresh picked up and he could have done it at the barber shop (they often got haircuts at the same time). Iff’n memory serves, the sheriff was taken off TV PDQ. Kinda sounds like the drug raid in VA could have been handled the same way?

Don’t get me wrong-I support the (good/honest/professional) police, but criminey folks…use your head for some o’ this stuff instead of taking a "Show ‘em who’s boss" approach!

BTW II…’bout halfway through 'The Great New Orleans Gun Grab: Descent Into Anarchy' and it’ll really make you think. It’s a shame most folks in this country won’t ever pay any attention to what happened down there.
In the book so far, the only enforcement agencies that acted with true professionalism have been the Louisiana Department of Wildlife & Fisheries and the 82nd Airborne!

 

[Hkmp5sd]

There was in incident about 20 years ago in Tampa in which the local SWAT team hit the wrong address while serving a no-knock warrant. The homeowner shot and killed one of the officers. The homeowner was shot and survived. He was arrested and tried for killing the LEO, but was aquitted.

 

[conw]

You'd think all these incidents mentioned just in this thread would give pause to these no-knock warrants...I mean, come on, monitor the house for 3 hours or something.

I think a home invader could really benefit by yelling "POLICE!" if accosted by the home owner. Damn, that'd be a psychological trump card.

 

[TexasSkyhawk]

Even if you do shoot a LEO in self defense, no one will believe you. Well, they might believe you but the people who matter won't support you. You'd better have ALOT of damn good witnesses!! LEOs always stick together, believe one another and support one another. Lawyers and judges will always side with the LEO as well.

Thanks for writing this!

I've saved it, printed and I'm letting it dry out. Soon as it does, I'm going to crumple it into tiny, tiny pieces and sprinkle it on my front lawn come spring time.

I should have the greenest grass on my block a few weeks afterwards.

Jeff

 

[thexrayboy]

Unless in extreme circumstances, any reaction to official police conduct must be completely passive.

Even if you are innocent and being unlawfully "roughed up" by a LEO, the courts expect you to endure and refrain from any physical resistance... and leave the punishment to the court.

That is the official goal of LEO. They want you to be passive no matter what they do. They know that unless you have a busload of impeccable witnesses and tv quality surveillance video that disputes whatever they choose to put in the official report your chances of prevailing in court are roughly equal to the proverbial snowball in hell.

Because the legal system is so thoroughly weighted in favor of whatever LEO says it becomes a tremendous ordeal for the average citizen of average means to recieve true justice.

Remember the goal of the legal system in this country is to administer law. If justice occurs during that process it is merely an accidental byproduct.