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shtf guns need suggestions

Discussion in 'Rifle Country' started by sethjewell, Jan 21, 2008.

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  1. sethjewell

    sethjewell New Member

    Jan 4, 2008
    Mossberg 500 12 ga
    Browning BLR takedown with pistol grip in 7mm mag
    Ruger Mark 2

    The mossberg for close quarters the 7mm mag for sniping and hunting, the ar 15 for combat, and the mark 2 for close quarters when i need quiet. Are these good or bad
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 22, 2008
  2. takhtakaal

    takhtakaal Active Member

    Nov 16, 2007
    Why not think about a different upper for the AR for the purposes of sniping and hunting? If the S has truly hit the F, you may not want to run around with a ton of stuff, or need to.

    Here's a nice faq by one of our own: http://demigodllc.com/~zak/firearms/6.8SPC/faq.php

    BTW, Mossberg does 500s and 590s.
  3. bannockburn

    bannockburn Elder

    Apr 24, 2007
    Shouldn't the Mossberg be a Model 500, or conversely, the 870 be a Remington? And what makes the Ruger Mk.II so quiet at close quarters?
  4. Navy joe

    Navy joe Senior Member

    Dec 24, 2002
    I realize that SHTF may overwhelm the search engine; so.....

    What are your percieved needs in this situation. SHTF can be Katrina, 2 weeks without power in an ice storm, the super duper bird flu, civil war, crop failure, the Yellowstone volcano, the Mayan TEOTWAWKI, etc. All have different time spans and needs. You may not survive all of them.

    So, if it is Red Dawn you ought to be able to obtain any needed weaponry with one service pistol, one spare mag and a plan.

    If it is some sort of societal breakdown, what will you do with the guns? Everyone will hear that 7mm from a ways off, maybe they will come take your food. An AR is good for combat as long as your 12 closest friends have them too and practice small unit tactics. 12ga for close quarters? Who is coming close? Why are you still there? In a long term societal breakdown the MKII may be the most useful for hunting.

    Don't get me wrong, I own plenty of guns for plenty of reasons other than paper-punching. I just think that people love to think SHTF without thinking it through. I've got 50 acres, have cornered the market on high ground and live in low population density away from major transit corridors. I still have plenty of problems guns won't solve. I can't start "sniping" people when they are 3/4 a mile away(at my mailbox, yes I can see it). Maybe they are the neighbor needing some help in this crisis. I need to know more people, if the right amount of crap had hit a big enough fan 20 armed men could shut my county down and keep everyone out. I don't know those people yet.

    You have to define needs. Where will you be going or staying? How long? Will other people come, can they be armed or are they unwelcome? Look up Preacherman on here, he thought he had plenty of stuff for a month until people kept showing up during Katrina. What will the guns do for you? Priority of needs.

    -Food, water, shelter. Guns may help obtain or secure that, but without those, don't need guns, you are going to die.

    -Place in society. If you are alone, not liked, or percieved to be prepared you are a target. Maybe they have guns too. Bugging out certainly reduces your friends and neighbors unless you are bugging home.

    -Fighting. How much and why? Like I said an AR is not a magic wand, it would be helpful to have some friends, more rifles, radios, armor, etc. Especially helpful would be a plan/survival model designed to avoid combat. I.e others may object to you using force of arms to obtain needed supplies. They may politely raise their objections with a superior weapon.

    So, to finally answer your question, first Mossberg does not make an 870, Remington does. Both are fine choices. A shotgun is a versatile pick because you can use it for defense, hunt any type of game with it all based on shell selection. Ammo is heavy per round so being mobile is a problem.

    AR is a good "combat" weapon, just realize all your other plans have failed if you find yourself using it.

    I'd pick something other than the 7mm mag based on excessive noise and sustainment. I use .30 cal of two flavors, local ammo selection should be considered. If your area is covered in 7mm, go for it.

    MKII, excellent choice. Put a small scope on it and go hunting. Not so sure about the silent part. If it is truly SHTF remaining society will weed out the unethical and sneaking around in the dark trying to eliminate people is a sure way to become unwelcome. Now if you are just quietly plinking the bad people they might have superior weapons, night vision, land mines, dogs, etc. if they are that bad.

    Me, I hope to have the same stuff I have now for SHTF. I use 3 platforms of pistols in 3 calibers. Those are N-frame .45acp, 1911 in .45 ACP and .22lr, and Glock 9mm. I work on all and have spare parts, spare guns and spare ammo. I have my personal rifles of an M-1A and and AR. I have several more ARs, I am building a bolt gun in the .308 of the M-1A. All have spare parts and I work on them. If others show up I have 4 K-31s. They are excellent simple rifles and I have the local ammo supply cornered. I have various flavors of shotguns. I need more stuff, notably a .22 rifle and much more ammo. Spare parts, there are never enoguh spare parts. There may be value in multiple cheap .22 pistols and ammo as trade goods.

    Still, all this may never truly mean a thing. The sky may never fall. If it does, I need to work on other things like alternate water, getting my own cattle, knowing more of my neighbors, aquiring more tools so I can use my skills, prepping medical and sanitation needs, getting my food supply in order, developing alternate monetary supplies, and on and on...

    Guns are a small part of any breakdown of the status quo picture.
  5. takhtakaal

    takhtakaal Active Member

    Nov 16, 2007
    Nah, it's that triple-clutch that overwhelms it! ;)
  6. Navy joe

    Navy joe Senior Member

    Dec 24, 2002
    Sir, I see your triple clutch and raise you one. Sorry folks,the network timed out and I hit refresh.

    Or I am a zombie bear incessantly posting and the S has already HTF. You decide. :D
  7. phaed

    phaed New Member

    Jun 19, 2007
    AR is good for parts/ammo. i'd recommend a 308 for longer range and hunting, for the ammo. a shotgun is great for HD and hunting birds...get one that'll do both. pistol isn't good for much, except concealment.
  8. DiN_BLiX

    DiN_BLiX Member

    Jul 30, 2004
    As navy joe says guns are just a small part of a SHTF plan, are you going to bug-out or hunkerdown? Either will carry there own set of risks and challenges, and you dont want TOO many guns carry or feed. If the wifey knows how to shoot, two hang guns and two carbines in a common caliber would be ideal, and maybe a shotty as a "house gun". AR, mini-14, sks, siaga, m1a (scout or socom), keltec su-16, m1 cabine are all goode rifles for the carbine role. The hand guns in my mind shoud be both either 9mm or .40 as these are the most common with 45acp a close second. But what ever you buy should be centered around the plan, not the other way around.
  9. Run&Shoot

    Run&Shoot Active Member

    Dec 27, 2005
    Depending on the scenarios you are concerned about you might be underestimating the need for a centerfire pistol.

    1) In a Katrina situation if you have to evacuate on foot you may become a target of bad guys and government agents if you are schlepping along with a rifle slung over your shoulder. Same too if you are just going down the street to check on a friend or some family.

    2) Long term economic decay such as FerFAL describes in Argentina results in constant danger, but still not acceptable to walk the streets or drive around with a rifle at the ready.

    In both situations it would be a lot more low profile to have one or two pistols you can carry with you at all times. If your funds allow you might consider a couple of identical pistols (the "New York reload" is a second pistol on you) which also gives you ready spares and the ability to arm a trusted friend if need be.

    Otherwise, I think you have a generally good approach: Rifle, carbine, shotgun, .22LR. Just need one or two pistols. Also, the 7mm magnum is too much. Way louder than others like .30-06, .308, .270, etc. which are perfectly good hunting/sniping cartridges.

    While it would be pretty uncommon to need a sniping capability, I could see it in the Katrina situation in which a few neighbors were trying to secure a couple of blocks of homes from roaming bands of looters. If I was in that situation it would be good to have a few guys on the ground to warn off intruders and handling the initial engagement. But it would be good to have a couple of guys on a roof for better vision and backup as snipers if things go bad. Especially if the looters were using vehicles as a means to break through initial defenses. I wouldn't consider sniping capability as a first priority but not a bad option to at least have in the back pocket.

    My revised list would be:
    - Rifle: either a battle rifle in .308 like the M1A or FAL; or a bolt action/scoped hunting rifle also in .308 or similar caliber.

    - Carbine: for close quarters and small stature family/friends like the AR15 or AK/SKS.

    - Pistols: at least one, but preferably two identical pistols such as 1911, Glock, XD, Hi-Power, SIG, Ruger, S&W MP, etc. I think the Glock 19/23 platform as ideal but lots of options here.

    - .22 LR rifle or handgun for eliminating pests or hunting small game as quietly and cheaply as possible

    - Shotgun (optional) Not esential if you have a rifle and pistol, but not bad as a general purpose supplement.
  10. Acheron

    Acheron Member

    Sep 2, 2007
    New Hampshire for school, Texas otherwise
    You've been wathcing too many movies. Way too many movies.

    First off, a MkII is surprisingly loud (all .22s are) unless supressed.

    Secondly, in a real SHTF situation you'd never lug around four different guns. Takes up too much space and too much weight. What about food and water, medical supplies, spare clothing, ammunition, etc?

    You want one long gun that will fill the most roles effectively, plus one pistol. Out of your list the only one that come close is the AR. Sling the the AR over your shoulder and stick the MkII on your hip. Stick with that.
  11. Zundfolge

    Zundfolge Elder

    Dec 24, 2002
    Colorado Springs
    Don't forget a wheelbarrow and a can for that .22.
  12. takhtakaal

    takhtakaal Active Member

    Nov 16, 2007
    Just don't say his name three times, Zundge.
  13. takhtakaal

    takhtakaal Active Member

    Nov 16, 2007


    Mind your stuffing doesn't start leaking out.
  14. Rshooter

    Rshooter Participating Member

    Sep 29, 2007
    I say dig in, and remember the Alamo......

    Really unless you have to move, Katrina, stay put. You start carrying around rifles and someone is going to disarm you one way or the other, think Katrina. "We are only doing it for your own good." Iraqis' are allowed an AK-47 but Americans' do not rate a .22.:banghead:
  15. GRB

    GRB member

    Feb 25, 2005
    Until you need one.
  16. JWarren

    JWarren Senior Member

    Jan 5, 2007
    MS and LA
    NavyJoe's post was very good. I'd pay attention to that.

    I'll add my perspective to this thread as well.

    When I first read the Original Post, my mind initially began to wonder as to what kind of SHTF you are envisioning. All are not created equally. That is not to say that you can't prepare for the worst-- in terms of firearms-- and get through just about anything. But each type of situation will come with its own unique challenges. For the moment, lets just think firearms.

    I went through Katrina in semi-rural Louisana. I live in Mississippi, but I was unable to even GET to my house during that time. My planned "3 days" at my Father-in-Law's house turned into 8 weeks without power, communication, or "ordinary" food and easily accessed water. The closest source of fuel was Baton Rouge-- about 2 hours drive away.

    Some people think Katrina only hit New Orleans. That was where the news story was-- and to a degree-- still is. Because of that, NO help was coming to us. The Calvary was rushing to New Orleans (if you call 4 days "rushing.") They were NOT rushing to anywhere else. It was over a week and a half before I saw a single "official" vehicle anywhere near us.

    And at the same time, people were getting more and more desperate with no access to funds, food, water, fuel, suppies, or information. We had our share of looters. Several businesses were broken into, and we had to defend our property 3 times during that period from thieves in the night.

    At any rate....

    I was rather ill-prepared for such a thing. I brought with me to my Father-in-Law's house a Romanian full-stock AK-47 along with about 200 rounds of ammunition. I also brought a Glock 19 with 50 rounds of Cor-Bon hollowpoints. My Father-in-Law had a few older sporting firearms-- notedly a Remington 1100 12 gauge and a .38spcl revolver.

    We made it through with that.

    But here is what I learned from that:

    1.) You better have all the ammunition you will need PRIOR to a situation. There will not be any for sell-- EVEN if the stores are open. One of the first things that the government did-- for our safety ;) -- was halt the sell of firearms and ammuntion.

    2.) As cool as it may be to envision ourselves walking around like Red Dawn, that will still scare people and draw attention to yourself. Neither are good things. That AK-47 RARELY was seen by anyone. Instead, I carried my Glock 19 under a loose, untucked shirt.

    3.) Long guns get in the way and are hard to keep up with. Trust me. The sad reality of a protracted SHTF is that you have WORK to do. It's not sitting in our little bunkers watching the horizon. You will likely spend most of your time cleaning up, repairing your home the best you can, emptying refrigerators and freezers, getting food, getting water, maintaining equipment, obtaining fuel, and a host of other mundane tasks.

    You simply cannot lug a long gun around as you do that. More than likely, it will end up propped up against a tree, left inside a doorway, or laying in your vehicle. It doesn't help that much being in any of those places. Plus, if you have uneducated adults or children around, you very well may have a gunshot wound on our hands in quick order.

    We often had my neice and nephew over with us-- both young children. When I was working, the AK was closed up in my jeep.

    For 99% of the time, it was my handgun that was with me. I could wear it even while doing heavy work such as operating a chainsaw. Make sure you get a GOOD rigid belt and quality holster.

    4.) The reality is that you WILL have to leave your "compound." I had to leave numerous times and head to Baton Rouge for fuel or supplies. No matter how well you THINK you have perpared, you forgot something essential-- or ran out of it. Again, that heightens the need for a decent handgun. When I was out for supplies or helping neighbors, I carried the Glock 19-- and kept the AK-47 in the jeep.

    5.) On the topic of "leaving your compound." Do you live in a larger city? Do you live in an apartment/condo? Those DO matter. What are your reasonable chances of having to go into a "shelter?" Do you think they will allow you do bring your $1,000 AR in? Do you think you will ever see it again once it gets confiscated? If a shelter is potentially in your future, a concealable handgun is more a friend to you than any long gun.

    Does it seem that I am saying that a handgun will get you through any SHTF? It certainly seems so. But I am not. I am saying that most people forget the value of a handgun. They go get tons of long guns and spend little or no time considering the firearm that will be with you 99% of the time-- and a FAR greater percentage than any long gun will be on you. A handgun will be your most used firearm in a SHTF.

    Now, that said. Lets talk about long guns.

    We spend WAY too much time trying to figure out what the "best" long gun for a SHTF is. Likely, most any will do. My personal belief is that you need to have one that is:

    1. Adequate stopping power

    2. Durable

    3. Fairly accurate

    4. Easily serviced and maintained

    5. Adequate ammunition capacity

    6. Adequate range

    7. In an more easily obtained caliber for your area

    8. One that you have spare parts for if something breaks (i.e. spare extractors for AR's)

    9. Can use optics AND iron sights

    10. One you have become VERY familar with in terms of use, expectations, and limitations.

    This criteria encompasses MANY firearms.

    I personally prefer "military" style rifles for this purpose. They are typically derived from battle-proven and reliable designs. They are typically easier to maintain, service, and repair. They are typically chambered in common calibers.

    I don't worry myself on the caliber debate so much. In terms of hunting, a LOT of calibers will take the game you would want to take. I've read dozens of threads saying that the AR is underpowered and they wouldn't have one. Well, realistically, I have seen DOZENS of people who routinely take Southeastern Whitetail with a 62 grain .223. It can do in a pinch.

    Someone once told me regarding a .22 rimfire:

    "A guy shot with a .22lr isn't going to run down the street, hold up a liquor store, rape 3 women, and rob a bank. They are going to RUN. Then they are going to bleed. Then they may die.. slowly and painfully."

    I kinda take that view on calibers. Regardless of your preference, it will likey do what you want it to do if you have an understanding of the capabilities and limitations of the caliber.

    But will the caliber you want be prohibitively expensive to stockpile ammuition for? Will it be hard to come by when you can buy or trade for it?

    There are two schools of thought on this.

    An odd caliber may be hard to get resupplies for since the stores may not stock much of it, or there may be fewer people who you can trade with....


    If you have a caliber that is very common for your area, that ALSO means that there are a LOT of other people that will be competing for you in the marketplace for those rounds. I promise you that your neighbors do not have enough ammuniton.

    It is better to stock your own supply-- and stack it deep. For that, you need to have a caliber that is not prohibitively expensive to do so. This is one reason I have not gotten a rifle in 6.8 Remington SPC yet. I like the round, but I just can't feel good about the cost of stockpiling it.

    I am feeling the same way about the OP mentioning 7mm mag.

    OK.... shotguns.

    I would simply say reliable. I prefer 12 gauge. Like rifles, stockpile your ammuniton. Don't bother with slugs. That pulls double duty with your rifles likely. Instead, get buckshot for HD use, but get a LOT more 6 or 7 shot. That is what makes the shotgun do something a highpowered rifle can't do.

    One thing left out of the OP was probably one of the most handy rifles. A long gun in 22 long rifle. This is the one that you can stockpile TONS of ammunition for. This is a perfect small game caliber. This is a perfect caliber for practicing marksmanship skills.

    Now, I say again... Different SHTF's are different. In a Katrina-like situation, you will likely not be hunting for your food. I never did. But again, it is better to prepare for a worst-case situation than not. Prepared for the end of the world as we know it puts you in a better positon for a protracted period of temporary disruption-- even if it seems to be overkill.

    Again, this post only focuses on firearms-- probably the least important aspect of a SHTF in terms of percentage time you will actually NEED the tool. I am not going to go into the other non-firearms concerns on this post. But I STRONGLY suggest that anyone truly interested in SHTF do some research and give some thought to the other CRITICAL aspects of preparation. You can do a search here and find a lot of information. I've covered a lot of it in my other posts-- as have others here.


    My analysis of the picks of the Original Poster:

    Mossberg 870 12 ga

    As mentioned earlier, its going to be a Remington 870 or a Mossberg 500/590. But either are good choices.

    Browning BLR takedown with pistol grip in 7mm mag

    This has me scratching my head.

    Why a pistol grip? An M1A doesn't have one, and is an excellent rifle to get the job done.

    Why a takedown? That is a LOT of expense and complication.

    Why 7mm mag? May be a tough caliber to reliably get, and may be very expensive to stockpile.

    Why a Browning BLR? My experience with semi-auto sporting rifles are that they are not nearly as durable as a military one. It may be hard to work on, get spare parts, and it has not proven itself--if it is the one I am thinking it is.

    This rifle more closely fits what you would want a MBR (Main Battle Rifle) to do. In that role, I would more likely consider:

    FAL (7.62 NATO) .308 Winchester
    M1A (7.62 NATO) .308 Winchester
    Saiga 308 (7.62 NATO) .308 Winchester
    AR-10 (7.62 NATO) .308 Winchester
    G3 (7.62 NATO) .308 Winchester

    7.62 NATO .308 Winchester will take down pretty much any mid-sized game you would need.


    Nothing wrong with an AR. Get spare parts.

    Ruger Mark 2

    I like a Ruger Mk II. But if I was looking for a 22 long rifle, I think I'd look for a long gun before a handgun. You can get a marlin at Walmart for 80 bucks. Dont' overlook that.

    In close quarters, what you have on hand is what you will use. Close means you have already screwed up. I wouldn't go looking for a Mossberg if I already had an AR in my hand. But a shotgun is good to have.

    Who are we sniping? And why? If someone is far enough away to need a long-range rifle, you are not in danger.

    Where are we hunting that we need a magnum? A .308. 30-06, .270, ect. will do the job as well. In a pinch, that .223 would do it, too.

    OK... but others would do as well. I would look for opportunities for firearms that can pull "double duty" as both combat AND hunting. Perhaps an M1A that will wipe the need for a Browning AND an AR. Spend the difference on ammuntion. At the same time, I have rifles that do the same thing, too.

    This sounds like James Bond movie assassanations. Who exactly are we assassinating again?

    In the movies, the "quiet" of the Ruger Mk II is the suppressor that is on the handgun. I think you may be disappointed with the noise without one. True, a 22 long rifle round is quiter than a high powered rifle, but it is not so quiet that we can perform what you are describing.

    You came here asking our opinion, and I'll give it. With no disrespect intended, I think what you are envisioning you will be doing is not realistic. I don't think you have thought out the situation in much detail.

    While I applaude you for starting to consider things, I highly encourage you to do more research and read more from those who have been through various situations. I would encourage you to give a through analysis of the needs you may have in your particular area, and what realistic scenerios you may face. Then go read and research some more.

    -- John
  17. Matt-J2

    Matt-J2 Active Member

    Nov 12, 2007
    Appleton, WI
    Don't forget the video games! The OP is 13, after all, according to a post in another thread.

    To sethjewell: Read the posts by JWarren, Navy Joe and others. Then go consult with your folks on what sort of plan(s) are in place for shtf-type scenarios. I'd stick with natural disaster types, zombie invasions won't get you the same sort of responses. ;) After all, I don't think you'll be doing much without them in those situations.
  18. H2O MAN

    H2O MAN member

    Dec 16, 2007
    Good idea.

    My M14s are my primary general purpose SHTF rifles, followed by my M4
    type ARs, a nice HK/Benelli 12 gauge. All of them are high capacity military
    style weapons with pistol grip stocks :)
  19. cornman

    cornman member

    Dec 8, 2007
    Forget the guns and get to know your community. The reason history repeats itself is that we teach the next generation the same fears and ignorance over and over again. When SHTF get together with your neighbors and STOP all this insanity about guns.
  20. takhtakaal

    takhtakaal Active Member

    Nov 16, 2007
    Did you ever participate in a thread, and get to the end of it, and come to the conclusion that it was mostly a waste?

    I'm willing to hold an intelligent conversation, or perhaps even a slightly addled one, depending upon my interlocutor, but I begin to get a bit weary of having serious ones with people who may have watched "I am Legend" and then found themselves playing potentially harmful games with airsoft rifles until called in for supper.

    FWIW, I think some posters need big, obvious, loud training wheels or something.
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