Soft-Point vs Hollow-Point for self-defense?

[Vern Humphrey]

And as far as the clothing clogging the point and preventing expansion, I will be VERY surprised if the new Hornady stuff expands any more consistently than Federal HSTs. Of all the things that can go wrong in a defensive shooting, clothing clogging the hollow-point is way down on my list of concerns.

If clothing is clogging the hollowpoint, at least that means you got a hit.

 

[golden]

The Los Angeles Police experimented with .38 Special soft point ammo as they were gun shy (excuse the pun) of hollow point ammo and the "DUM DUM" protests. They found the soft point ammo at pistol velocities was just as ineffective as the lead round nose ammo.

At pistol velocities, expansion is unlikely without a hollow point or some exotic bullet. The FEDERAL Expanding Full Metal jacket was reported to work well in tests, but has not been used by any major law enforcement agency. It reportedly was selected by the U.S. military for use against "insurgents".

I would not consider any soft point round unless it was fired from a rifle.

Jim

 

[RapidFireBeak]

Not to stir the pot too much, but Vincent DiMaio (retired forensic pathologist) literally wrote the book on gunshot wounds and claims that he can't tell the difference between wounds caused by HP bullets vs others when examining a body (at least, for pistol cartridges.) I think the main benefit is that HPs are less likely to penetrate and hit something behind the target.

Aim for the mediastinum, not the abdomen. It makes a vital organ hit much more likely (the only really good targets in the mid-lower abdomen are the aorta and the vertebral column, and even a vertebral hit is no guarantee of spinal damage). Think of how fat some people are; abdominal shots may not even penetrate to the money targets, which are in the rear of the cavity. There's a lot of intervening tissue.

Slightly off topic: has anyone tested the expansion of Rainier/Berry's plated hollowpoints? I would think expansion would be at least as good as conventional jacketed designs, since their softness should lead to ready deformation. However, I don't know if this is true or not.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Not to stir the pot too much, but Vincent DiMaio (retired forensic pathologist) literally wrote the book on gunshot wounds and claims that he can't tell the difference between wounds caused by HP bullets vs others when examining a body (at least, for pistol cartridges.) I think the main benefit is that HPs are less likely to penetrate and hit something behind the target.

Marvin Fackler, a retired Army pathologist, also claims to have written the book on gunshot wounds.

While data from pathlogy is valuable, pathologists cannot provide information on tactical results. Fackler is a case in point -- he claims most men killed by gunshot wounds in Viet Nam were killed by full-auto fire, because they had multiple gunshot wounds.

Some disrespectful person asked him what tests he performed to determine if all the bullets that hit a man came from the same weapon -- and what tests he performed to determine the position of the selector switch. Since I have personally seen men hit multiple times by different weapons, I sort of side with the disrespectful person.

 

[JSmith]

"I shoot IDPA and I am always impressed by the rather large and unusual shapes of the holes left by the .45 ACP LRN. I might start reloading, just to have that for my defensive ammo!"

I shot LRNs in my 1911 once - it took quite a while to scrub the lead fouling out of the barrel. Now I go with jacketed ammunition, always.

"Marvin Fackler, a retired Army pathologist, also claims to have written the book on gunshot wounds."

There are lots of books on gunshot wounds.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

There are lots of books on gunshot wounds

And by and large, everyone who's ever written one claims his book is the book on gunshot wounds.

 

[RapidFireBeak]

Vern,
I guess a more accurate statement would be that DiMaio wrote the book on the forensic examination of gunshot wounds (I'm not aware of another book that deals with this topic exclusively.)

Are you sure Fackler is a pathologist? I was under the impression that he was a trauma surgeon in Viet Nam.

I'm not advocating that PDs start using FMJ, but when a guy who's done pretty extensive examinations (including cutting up the body and all the organs) on a lot of GSW victims says that pistol HPs don't produce wounds appreciably different from pistol FMJs, it makes you think.

 

[RapidFireBeak]

The forensic pathologist perspective is valuable because you have the luxury of doing a pretty thorough examination and documenting the objective anatomic findings of the wounds.

Of course, you can't state what actually happened without good situational information from people who were there. But actual "tactical" data from witnesses can be unreliable, as well (ie "I won't carry 9x19 because it lacks stopping power, which I know because I saw a guy unload a full magazine at an assailant and he kept coming! Miss, of course he didn't miss!")

The best data comes from having a good postmortem plus good scene info, ie "officer fired 7 times with service pistol, decedent ran for approx. 50 feet and collapsed, DOA when paramedics arrived. He has 4 gunshot wounds of entrance and X internal findings". Marrying the two up can paint a pretty accurate picture of the situation.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Vern,
I guess a more accurate statement would be that DiMaio wrote the book on the forensic examination of gunshot wounds (I'm not aware of another book that deals with this topic exclusively.)

Are you sure Fackler is a pathologist? I was under the impression that he was a trauma surgeon in Viet Nam.

Also a pathologist -- he's performed hundreds of autopsies.

I'm not advocating that PDs start using FMJ, but when a guy who's done pretty extensive examinations (including cutting up the body and all the organs) on a lot of GSW victims says that pistol HPs don't produce wounds appreciably different from pistol FMJs, it makes you think.

The point is, an autopsy tells nothing about the tactical effect, only about the appearance of the body afterwards. An autopsy can't tell you if the subject dropped like he was poleaxed, or kept shooting. It can't tell you if the shooter used the sights or shot by instinct. It can't tell you very much at all that's valuable in selecting weapons, ammunition, or tactics.

 

[grendelbane]

Slightly off topic: has anyone tested the expansion of Rainier/Berry's plated hollowpoints? I would think expansion would be at least as good as conventional jacketed designs, since their softness should lead to ready deformation. However, I don't know if this is true or not.

In my unscientific testing, they did not perform as well as most conventional hollow points. I tried some 230 grain .45 hollowpoints, over a relatively stout load of Unique, (approximately 850 fps, from a 5" barrel). Firing into water filled OJ cartons and heavily soaked newspaper showed little sign of expansion, while several conventional JHPs showed classic mushrooms.

The same was also true with some 158 grain JHPs I tested.

Its also hard to get their velocity up higher, as their thin plate of copper doesn't always mesh well with higher velocity.

Now, out of a .50 Beowulf, the Rainier hollow point does indeed expand!

The lead in the plated bullets contains a high percentage of antimony. Plated bullets can be made which will expand, (Gold Dot), but the Rainier offerings, with a few exceptions, do not seem to perform as well as their conventional competition.

This has been my experience. I would love to find out that things have changed.

 

[6.5x39]

I load with FMJ and JHP alternating. If I ever have to use my defense clip for actual home defense I don't have to stop and think about whether the intruder has a heavy leather jacket on or not: I simply shoot in two rounds at a time instead of one (and practice that way as well). If the threat isn't neutralized after two rounds, hit it with two more. Repeat as necessary.

 

[wyk]

Yes, I do the same too. However, I alternate FMJ and JSP. Just wondering if using JSP is just as good as using JHP.

 

[Clifford]

My Own hillbilly testing with .357 as follows...

6 rounds each all numbers averaged

158 hornaday XTP @1353 / expanded to .481 and penetrated 14.75" of wet pack.
158 Remington SP @ 1290 / expanded to .380 and penetrated 18"
158 LSWC @ 1324 / expanded to .360?!?! and penetrated to 24" plus (3 rounds went all the way thru my wetpack, whitch was 24" deep.

 

[918v]

What about a Remington UMC 125gr .357 Mag Jacketed Soft Point?

Its leaves a 4" barrel gun at 1450 ft/sec with 583 ft-lbs of energy.

Will this particular soft-point effectively expand when used in self-defense against a human?

No.

357 SP's are not designed to expand in flesh. If you look at the jacket, you'll notice a complete lack of creases, hence no stress points for the jacket to rip open as the lead tries to mushroom. Also, the alloy is harder than the alloy used in hollow points. They may expand to .36", but not much more than that. They will penetrate as deep as a SWC.

A 357 hollow point, on the other hand, will expand to .60" and penetrate 15" which is just about perfect provided the hollow point does not clog.

If you want a nice soft point, 9mm 124gr Speer Unicor Soft Points have pre-stressed jackets, pure lead cores, and the ability to mushroom at 9mm velocities. If you load them to 1500 FPS, they will turn inside out. Just seat them deep enough to crimp over the shoulder, kinda like a traditional 45 Long Colt.

 

[Ben86]

Soft point sucks for pistols because it requires a higher velocity to work effectively than most pistols can achieve, especially compact ones. With jhps they work with a wide range of velocities.

Soft points are great for rifles though, (high velocity).

 

[Old Ranger]

The whole idea when in a personal defense situation is to have the round stay INSIDE the target. A self defense bullet should be safe to use on an airplane by an Air Marshall. In a McDonald's or in your house - - - and not slam through the children's bedroom.

The best one I've found is the Golden Sabre. Hollow points - - - always hollow points. A good choice for the .38 snubbie (other than the Golden Sabre) is Remington's semi jacketed +P hollow point.

SPs are for hunting.

 

[CHEVELLE427]

might sound crazy

but in my auto's and revolvers (cylinder) ill start with HP in half the mag and
JSP AND or JRN IN last half of the mag.

have not had any trouble with any mix at the range, figured if the HP didn't do the job the SP & RN will.

if you need 6 or 7 More rounds to stop an attack, the bad guy or what ever might have something stopping the HP from doing there job,
last ones in the gun will be for the penetration factor.

 

[Old Ranger]

The only way a good hollow point isn't going to do what it was intended to do; is if you miss, or the perp is wearing a vest - - - in that case, switch your point of aim. If you missed; well, you shouldn't be doing that at personal defense range anyway - - - get a Crimson Trace.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Handgun bullets aren't quite that reliable. Hollowpoints, for example, can be plugged by clothing which can prevent expansion. Hence the old adage, "A 9mm might expand, but a .45 will never shrink."