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Teenage Robber Dead, Shot by Good Samaritan

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by Yoda, Oct 5, 2012.

  1. Yoda

    Yoda Well-Known Member

    Before the moderators shut this down, saying, "Just because it involves a shooting does not mean it's TR material," please read on.

    There are two points in this article relevant to THR members.

    First, the good Samaritan went to his car and retrieved a gun to intervene in a robbery, where customers were being held at gunpoint. After shooting both bad guys, the good guy fled the scene. (He later returned.) Although there has been a lot of advice offered on THR about what to do after a shooting, running away before the police show up has never been one of the suggestions.

    Second, there may be a sea change that is now reaching even into California. The good guy was described as a "good Samaritan" in the local media. Given the way things go in California, I would have expected the news to label him a "vigilante," especially after he fled the scene.

    Here's the link.

    Let's talk about the wisdom of running off after saving the day, and the wonderment of the good guy being described in complimentary terms. Heck, we could even talk about how much more effectively the good guy could have responded if he was carrying, but maybe not. He did, after all, win the fight.

    - - - Yoda
  2. scaatylobo

    scaatylobo Well-Known Member

    I see nothing

    I plead not guilty.

    I quote Sgt Shultz from Hogans Hero's [ are any that old ? ].

    "I see nothing".

    This is the kind of discussion that is held in PRIVATE among very close friends = period.
  3. Sky

    Sky Well-Known Member

    Like you I thought the article was bias for a change in the right direction. If the perps were Ms-13 or some other gang ( which is unknown to us) it might have been a good idea to leave until the LEOs got there. We will have to see what happens next.
  4. Owen Sparks

    Owen Sparks member

    Never talk to the police. Nothing good can come of it as ANYTHING you say can be held against you in a court of law.
  5. Manco

    Manco Well-Known Member

    I'll say, as those who run away are often presumed to be guilty of a crime, but thankfully there appears to be understanding and benefit of the doubt given to him here.

    Well, just because most of the politicians and maybe the media in some regions of California are rabidly anti-gun doesn't mean that the whole state is! I've lived in San Diego County and other parts of Southern California for most of my life, and rarely if ever have I seen anti-gun news reports regarding justified shootings. Juries here seem to be pretty supportive of the right to self-defense, too, on the whole.

    There is none, and it's a good thing that he came back before the police went after him. :uhoh:

    That's always good to see wherever the incident took place.

    One can always improve one's chances of winning the fight by learning from the mistakes of others, regardless of the success of their outcomes--success is no justification for skipping lessons. This seems more like a discussion for the ST&T forum, though.
  6. Gato Montés

    Gato Montés Well-Known Member

    If it weren't for the potential legal fallout that could arise from fleeing I'd recommend it all the time. You always see trainers telling us to check 360 degrees after we shoot because wolves travel in packs, extracting yourself from the scene until police arrive seems a good idea.

    EDIT to add; I meant to say that you should let the police know the situation as soon as possible, let them know you left and you're waiting for the police to arrive before you return.
  7. Double Naught Spy

    Double Naught Spy Sus Venator

    Egress to a location of safety is strategically sound. That may be on site or not.
  8. mister_murphy

    mister_murphy Well-Known Member

    Ummm, Never? That is wrong. Even the U.S. Supreme court has said so.



    Which basically said a defendant must "invoke" his right to remain silent unambiguously. Keep in mind this case was about a defendant who kept silent for around 3 hours, but there again, you statement was to "never talk to the police", right?

    Frankly, as far as the basics, a person should, and in some instances must say or state certain things to law enforcement, such as, I.D. themselves [also required in some states by law and case law], state such things if needed like, "I invoke my right to remain silent" or in the event of a self defense incident should say, "I was a victim and I defended myself."
    Last edited: Oct 5, 2012
  9. MachIVshooter

    MachIVshooter Well-Known Member

    The most important words in this thread.

    I saw a very good (and very long) video of a former attorney/current law professor and a sheriff explaining this very articulately. Things you may say that you couldn't possibly see as reflecting a negative light on you most definitely can.

    That doesn't mean you should be rude to the officers; Just say something like "I'm really shaken up right now and need some time to clear my head think before making a statement". After all, you do have a right not to incriminate yourself, which can happen even when you're innocent.

    Here's that video:

  10. SouthernYankee

    SouthernYankee Well-Known Member

    Always willingly identify yourself to the police, offer your firearm that was used in self-defense and say nothing more than I wish to speak with my Attorney BEFORE making any statements. Remember, the police will ALWAYS try to get you to speak because their job is to investigate, just give them nothing more. Your Attorney should be the first to hear your story!
  11. r1derbike

    r1derbike Well-Known Member

    I also saw that classroom video and agree with it, totally.
  12. Zoogster

    Zoogster Well-Known Member

    This is actually the norm in California if someone is shot while robbing a convenience store on video camera, clearing holding people at gunpoint.

    You are more in the clear defending the local 7-11 than just about anywhere else. The home is a close second to such a business.

    Contrary to bad California gun laws, California has had better self defense laws than most of the country for decades. It was not until recently that portions of the country have started to catch up or exceed California self defense laws in a business or the home (And the majority of the country is still behind especially concerning a business.)
    Something better than Castle Doctrine for the home has existed a long time. The presumption that anyone who unlawfully enters a home intends harm to the occupants warranting deadly force (unless they are related or live there) has been California law for quite some time. Going well beyond no duty to retreat, still seen in many states with better gun laws.
  13. Zoogster

    Zoogster Well-Known Member

    If that is the one I think it is then it is for the most part accurate.

    What you say can and will be used against you, but what you say cannot be used for you.
    What you say that benefits you is 'heresay' and not evidence at all in court. What you say that can in any way be twisted against you is evidence in court.
    Your words can incriminate you, but cannot exonerate you.

    So nothing you say will benefit you in court, but may hurt you.

    The only way what you say can help is by directing the investigation so it does not miss important clues.
    For example be sure that person walking away that saw everything gets stopped and talked to. Be sure they don't miss that other guy's weapon over there. Etc
    Surprisingly obvious things can be missed and nobody is taking your word for it months later at the trial. If that evidence is not seen as evidence and preserved originally it may or may not be something people in court will believe even existed.

    But as the video shows, just a cop remembering incorrectly what you said can cause problems, pinning the word of law enforcement against you, the suspect. While if you said nothing they can't even recall what was said wrong.
    You could say things that clearly benefit you, and then it gets written down or remembered differently, but is still considered your statement.
    Last edited: Oct 5, 2012
  14. Double Naught Spy

    Double Naught Spy Sus Venator

    The article doesn't say this. It just says a gun was retrieved from the car, but not where the Good Sam was at the time he realized there was a robbery in progress. He very well may have been at his car already, leaning on the bumper, against the door, etc. He could have been sitting in his car, but not carrying his gun on his person. He was not (nor did you say) that he was inside during the robbery.


    This link has him in the parking lot which is where his car was. Neither state that he was out of his car before the robbery was observed.

  15. Kleanbore

    Kleanbore Moderator

    Well put indeed.

    The video linked in Post #9 contains some great advice--for most kinds of criminal cases, in which "anything you say" can be used to convince a jury beyond a reasonable doubt that it was you who did the deed. But--and don't ever forget this--in a self defense case, you will have to say that it was you who did the deed, and that won't be something that the state has to prove. Rather , it will be up to ou to provide evidence that what you did was excusable, or in today's more common usage justified, under the law. Absent such evidence, you wil not prevail, and once lost, evidence will not be available to serve your purpose.

    We've been over his many times, and we have a sticky on the subject.

    See this. The first post was provided by our moderator Frank Ettin, an attorney who was known as fiddletown at the time. For those who seem to need video lectures, there are two of them linked in the thread.

    Sying too much to the police, or to the media, is a very poor idea, but saying nothing after a self defense case can help seal your fate.
  16. Kenneth

    Kenneth Well-Known Member

    Ditto with NY State. Article 35 "Defense of Justification" even allows the use of deadly force against fleeing criminals (armed robbers, rapists, etc. Please do not pop any caps at shoplifters or jaywalkers).

    IMHO a discussion of the circumstances in which a person may legally use deadly physical force has a place somewhere on THR. But IANAM (Hey! New acronym!)
    It is just as wise to know the laws of the several states concerning the use deadly force, as it is to know the gun laws.
  17. hso

    hso Moderator Staff Member

    That's an amazingly lucky individual and I wouldn't expect anyone else to think that leaving the scene of a shooting would result in anything other than some jail time, if for nothing else, simply leaving. As pointed out the last thing you want is to have to shoot someone and nearly as bad is do anything that causes people to question the justification for the shooting and assume your guilt.

    It is outstanding to see the locals and the news treat him as a hero, but I think that as outsiders we burden ourselves with prejudices about a locale. I'd like to hear from California members to see whether they find the treatment of the good samaritan exceptional or not.

    OTOH, the fact that we see this new piece outside the local news area it allows us to circulate it with the observation that the OP has given. "WOW, even in anti gun California where you'd assume a good samaritan would be painted as a fiend for using a gun to save someone else's life the police and the news are recognizing him as a hero. Perhaps the lies the antis have tried to shove down everyone's throats all these years are not poisoning people's minds as they's hoped!".
  18. Running away, DIRECTLY TO TALK TO YOUR ATTORNEY, should not be frowned upon. After contact with your attorney, he can negotiate for you to contact the police with him present.
  19. Kleanbore

    Kleanbore Moderator

    But it is. If one has to run away for the sake of safety, run to a police station.

    In combination with other evidence, flight will be looked upon as an indication of guilt.

    If one has "run away", there is nothing for one's attormey to "negotiate".
  20. JohnBT

    JohnBT Well-Known Member

    Sure there is, bail.

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