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Tell my Dad why .22LR/.25ACP is no good for SD

Discussion in 'Handguns: General Discussion' started by SuperMagnum, Aug 4, 2009.

  1. SuperMagnum

    SuperMagnum member

    For some reason my Dad got the idea that he wants "a little .25" or maybe a .22 for a house gun. I keep telling him he needs to get a little pink dress to wear before he shoots it. His only reasoning is "I can hide it in my back pocket" and "If I have to use it, it will be up against the guy's head anyway". :banghead:

    I'm sorry if there are any .25 ACP fans out there but I think this is one of the most useless rounds out there, and would trust a .22 for defense first. Most rational people don't use a .22 for defense either. I keep telling him he can easily get any gun that shoots .25 in something like 9mm or .380 and it would still fit in his pocket. And the situation of having the gun up against someone's head is never going to happen in real life. :rolleyes: We're talking about a very large man who can handle the recoil of a .44 Mag and probably hide a Blackhawk in his pocket...

    So, could anyone besides me list the reasons why (or why not if you feel that way) a .25ACP makes a terrible house gun? I'm going to print this out and let him read it...(he still hasn't figured out that whole "internet" thing)
  2. 3pairs12

    3pairs12 Well-Known Member

    25acp is better than a sharp stick. On the other hand there a lot of better calibers for home defense/ pocket guns. I like .38spl for small pocket size guns. Still pretty light on the recoil, cheap to shoot, bigger hole, ammo will be more readily available and cheaper(at some point) again.
  3. CornCod

    CornCod Well-Known Member

    Its never worth arguing with parents. Suggest that he get a Walther P22 and shoot CCI mini-mags for practice and CCI Stingers out of it for self-defense. Just be happy the old guy shares your interest in firearms and don't worry that he never read Jeff Cooper.
  4. CWL

    CWL Well-Known Member

    Buy your dad a nice revolver in .38spl/.357mag, or a 9mm semi, or a 12ga., etc.

    If you buy him something with a larger bore, hopefully you will preclude his need for that .25ACP.
  5. My dad had a couple 12 ga shotguns, a couple .22 rifles, a Jap 6.5 he brought home from WWII, and an H&R 922 he bought for a "house gun" that he never kept loaded. It rested in a dresser drawer for all of the time he had it (we sons took it out and shot it a bit) except for the times he took it along hunting to finish off rabbits. He never used it in self defense. My friends dad had a .25 Colt that he never kept loaded in his dresser drawer, much the same as my dad. SO, I guess a .22 or .25 handgun might serve most people quite well (as most people will never have a need to use it.)
  6. mljdeckard

    mljdeckard Well-Known Member

    This last month, my dad finally went to get his carry permit. At the last minute, my mom wanted to go with him. The instructor had her shoot to show proficiency, (instructor's choice, the state doesn't require it,) and she failed miserably, not having touched a handgun that I'm aware of in the last 25 years. So my dad is telling me this, and says; "I think I need to get her a .22 to carry."

    I told him what CWL said above. That if she can't shoot a .22 well enough to save her life, it doesn't matter what you get her. The best, least intimidating way for her to learn and carry a viable SD gun, (besides continuing .22 practice,) is to get a 4" Ruger or Smith .357, load it with .38s, and let her learn her way up to .357 loads. He suggested going to a different instructor that wouldn't require the shooting test, and I said go ahead, BUT, she STILL won't be ready to carry. She has a LOT of learning to do, and (I bit this part off,) what he was teaching her obviously wasn't letting her hit the mark. A small gun CAN be a way to help a beginner learn, but if they can't even hit with that, they need ground-up training.

    And I'm 100% with the OP. We have beat the hide off of this dead horse, and a lot of guys in here won't be convinced, but I will NEVER tell someone to carry something smaller than 9mm for personal defense. (If they're anyone I actually care whether or not they live or die.) Yes, you use what you have. Yes it's BARELY better than nothing. But if anyone gets a .22 and tells themself thatg they are done, trained and safe, they have NOT increased their chances of survival. They are going to be just as complacent about their TRAINING as they are about their GUN CHOICE. They are keeping it because they are unwilling to learn more, or too lazy to train, or both.

    I agree with CWL, that if he had a choice, something bigger, like HE SUDDENLY HAD A MEDIUM SIZED REVOLVER THAT SOMEONE GAVE HIM, he might be more willing to shoot it, and realize that it isn't so terrible. I doubt there's a thing on the planet you could say to him to change his mind. You're going to have to SHOW him this one.

    My father is also a large man, who just bought his first 1911. (A SA Mil-Spec.) He's been hunting and shooting his whole life, but NOT with defensive handguns, so he still isn't used to the recoil. I didn't tell him that a Glock .40 recoils a lot more. It's a question of what one is used to and perception of what is and is NOT bad recoil.

    I suppose you might also say I agree with Sharps. A .22 or .25 is great......as long as you never have to actually use it. :) It's a security blanket, not a survival tool.
  7. christcorp

    christcorp Well-Known Member

    Sorry Magnum, but I try not to lie to people.
  8. David E

    David E Well-Known Member

    Any gun WITH you beats any gun not. That said, not all guns or calibers are equal.

    If a .25 acp improves your odds by 5%, then that's still an improvement on the odds.

    But, as you said, you can get .32's and .380's in the same size gun. Going with your Dad's "back pocket" criteria (poorly thought out as it is, since a "house gun" would rarely be found in the back pants pocket) then get him a Keltec or Ruger LCP .380 and a pocket holster and call it good.

    If you have time and inclination, take him shooting and bring some better gun choices with you and see which one he likes. Remember, you're taking him shooting to have FUN......and hopefully he'll find one he likes. (if you have or can borrow a Raven .25 or Baby Browning, bring it. He'll realize pretty quick that the .25 isn't the only answer.)
  9. Dr.Rob

    Dr.Rob Moderator Staff Member

    Offer him two gifts:

    One is a man purse for his .25 or .22

    The other is a real pistol/revolver. You can pick up a Charter Arms or Taurus 38 on the cheap that will be a LOT more reliable than most 'cheap' .5's on the market.
  10. mljdeckard

    mljdeckard Well-Known Member

    (My family gives me crap for carrying a full-size 1911 in a fanny pack, my 'man-purse'.)
  11. zxcvbob

    zxcvbob Well-Known Member

    Get him a Beretta (Tomcat?) .32 -- it's one step up from what he's talking about. A Makarov might be a good choice, but that's about 3 steps up. (I'm looking at antique S&W Hammerless Safety revolvers; cute little things that would fit in a pocket real easy. Hold 5 shots of .38SW )

    .22 is not as bad as you imagine, except the ammo sure seems unreliable lately. If he gets a .22, tell him to use CCI Minimags or better. They are the only .22LR I know of that goes "Bang" every time.
  12. CWL

    CWL Well-Known Member

    A least the Tomcat has a tilt-up barrel, but small guns are just a bad choice for primary SD, especially with people getting-on in years. Try holding, loading, racking the slide and aiming one of them, especially with arthritis and similar ailments.

    Rather than arguing this with one's parents, I still suggest gifting them a better firearm.
  13. Dr.Rob

    Dr.Rob Moderator Staff Member

    Even if he's SET on a small pistol get him well made one. No reason to bet your life on a 60 dollar Lorcin/Raven etc when a Beretta is available. A Beretta will stand up to real practice, many of those cheap pistols won't.

    You can also benefit from a 'full sized' .22 or at least a .22 Magnum that get significant benefits from a longer barrel.
  14. WTBguns10kOK

    WTBguns10kOK Well-Known Member

    Corncod has the best advice. You'd be wise to meet your old man where he is at.
  15. bangkok

    bangkok Well-Known Member

    I think it's funny that most people believe you need a hand cannon for SD. IMO, most people will never need or use it in a SD situation, most burglers or muggers aren't hopped up on PCP and require a full mag of .45 (most are just opportunist) (sp?) and last, i've seen that just the sound of a single gun shot of any caliber sends people running in the opposite direction.

    Oh yeah, I forgot, even a .22 or .25 round hurts enough to stop an attack in most situations as I said they aren't all whacked out on PCP, crack or a zombie.:)
  16. shootistpd27

    shootistpd27 Well-Known Member

    I have three letters for you. L. C. P. It the perfect pocket pistol and it wont weigh his pants down while it waits quietly to be called into service. Its amazingly accurate and relatively cheap. Its only about $325 retail. He wont be able to argue with its size, weight and caliber. However a 22 will kill the hell out of someone. I dont know why people act as if a 22 lr wont hurt the bad guy. If your so set against your dad getting a 22 or a 25, volunteer to take one of the small rounds to the but cheak, if its not so bad, you will just walk it off and he will buy a bigger caliber pistol.
  17. David4516

    David4516 Well-Known Member

    The .25ACP isn't THAT bad.

    It beats using a stick or a rock

    I have a small Beretta model 950 "Jetfire" in .25, and I like it. My wife has one too. I know it's been said about a zillion times, but a gun in the pocket beats one in the safe. And nothing disappears in your pocket like a .25

    It's not my first choice of course, but sometimes it's hard to carry something larger, and I'd rather have the little gun than no gun at all.

    You could try talking him into getting two guns. A little Beretta for his pocket, and maybe a pump shotgun. Can't go wrong with either a 20ga or a 12ga and buckshot.
  18. zxcvbob

    zxcvbob Well-Known Member

    I didn't recommend that one because the recoil is so nasty he'll never practice with it.

    The .25 could break the skin and cause a nasty infection. :D
    "Blow up your T.V., throw away your paper, go to the country, and build you a home" —John Prine

    THE DARK KNIGHT Well-Known Member

    Ask your dad if he can describe a SELF DEFENSE situation in where you can hold the gun against someone's head. Explain to him self defense is legal, execution is not. The only situation I can think is if you're tackled or wrestling with an assailant with a gun in your hand. I'd rather not wait till I'm rolling on the floor with a maniac for my weapon to be effective.

    There is no doubt 22/25 are lethal but, effective? no. Take him to a range and rent some compact 9's, he'll like them.
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2009
  20. MarineOne

    MarineOne Well-Known Member

    How about the Bursa .380 for this task?

    It's small, easy to conceal, decent caliber size, and will fit in a back pocket or under a pillow rather nicely.

    I think he justs wants a small semi-auto and the more commonly known varieties are the .22 and the .25. I wouldn't use a .25 because my aunt had one many moons ago that had a tendancy to go into "burst" or "full auto" regularly.


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