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the "Japanese has fewer murders" argument

Discussion in 'Legal' started by gibson_es, Jan 15, 2013.

  1. gibson_es

    gibson_es Well-Known Member

    It twas used against me. And i cant seem to find a defensive statement that i like. Personallyi think with no gun ban they would have much fewer murders tgen us period. Might be a cultural thing. Im not sure.

    For those that arw unaware. Theres a statistic out there showing 12,000 gun murders a year in the u.s. and only 11 in japan (2006 i think) now japan a little less then half the population. Even so. That would be 22-30 deaths a year if they had out population. I was tjinking the best way is to show its a crap statistic foe the anti gun argument. Im thinking if i cab find non-weapon murder rates for the two countries. Showing japan is lower then i can make a defense with the idea that guns or not, they just simply have fewer murders. But i cant find those stats anywere. And i need a better way of wording it.

    Any ideas? And yes i know that stats are somewhat crap because they can be twisted to show whatever you want within reason

    Yes i see the typos.im on my phone and the cursor wont go were i wanted it too
  2. DeepSouth

    DeepSouth Well-Known Member

    The Japanese also punish their criminals.

    That's what we should try.
  3. rcmodel

    rcmodel Member in memoriam

  4. ScrapMetalSlug

    ScrapMetalSlug Well-Known Member

  5. Birch Knoll

    Birch Knoll Well-Known Member

    Indeed, Japan has a far lower homicide rate than the US. But that has nothing whatsoever to do with guns. Sure, their gun homicide rate is lower, but so is their knife homicide rate, and their blunt object homicide rate, and their hands/feet homicide rate.

    If one believes that Japan has fewer gun homicides because the Japanese have fewer guns than Americans, it follows that Japan has fewer homicides by hands and feet because the Japanese have fewer hands and feet than Americans.
  6. Phatty

    Phatty Well-Known Member

    The reason for the low murder rate is almost entirely cultural. If you could clone me a millions times and start a new country with just my clones, the murder rate would be zero.

    You can't simply compare the behaviors of individual people and try to make conclusions about the efficacy of criminal laws. Release all the prisoners from a high security prison and start a new town with just those prisoners isolated from the rest of the world. Now start another new town composed of entirely Amish people isolated from the rest of the world. No matter what the gun laws are in those towns, I guarantee you that the prisoners' town will have a higher crime rate than the Amish town. Put a total gun ban in place in the Amish town, and have no gun laws in the prisoners' town -- anti-gun folks will then argue, "look the gun ban results in less crime." Put a total gun ban in place in the prisoners' town and no gun laws in the Amish town and the pro-gun folks will argue, "see, gun bans don't work and less gun laws result in less crime."

    What it comes down to is that any geographic area is composed of numerous distinct individuals who all make their own choices. If you've got a lot of responsible, honorable, law-abiding people in an area (i.e. Japan), you'll have a lower crime rate. If you have a bunch of gang-banging, criminal-minded degenerates (i.e. Chicago), you'll have a higher crime rate.

    FIVETWOSEVEN Well-Known Member

    I'm a firm believer that if we didn't have the large gang issue or share a border with a country almost run by drug cartels that we would be the safest country in the world. Japan doesn't have that same issue. Another thing would be their culture standards seem to be higher in many regards. That does have an effect.
  8. Frank Ettin

    Frank Ettin Moderator

    First, the proper question is not about murders with guns, it's about murders.

    The basic reality is that Japan has a lower murder rate than the United States because it's Japan. And Mexico has a higher murder rate than the U. S. because it's Mexico. Murder rates and crime rates are driven by a complex assortment of cultural, legal, social and economic factors, not solely by the availability of a particular instrument.

    There is evidence that some countries with strict gun laws have been experiencing a significant increas in violent crime, while such has been decreasing in the United States.

    For example:

    • See this article regarding violent crime in Great Britain.

    • This paper also describes higher and rising crime rates in Europe compared with the United States.

    • The Crime Victimization Survey conducted by the University of Leiden in The Netherlands shows overall violent crime rates in the United States well below those of some of the European countries with the stricter gun laws you favor.

    • The study Crime and Justice in the United States and in England and Wales, 1981-96 conducted by the US Bureaus of Justice Statistics shows decline rates of violent crime in England while the rates in the U. S. are falling.

    • For an excellent study of the rise in violent crime, and the erosion of gun and self defense rights in Great Britain see, Guns and Violence, the English Experience by Joyce Lee Malcolm (Harvard University Press, 2002). It's well worth reading.

    • And here's an interesting article co-authored by well known and respected Second Amendment scholar, David Kopple, on that subject.
  9. Lucifer_Sam

    Lucifer_Sam Well-Known Member

    Anybody tries the international thing, just go to Switzerland and Mexico contrast. Switzerland, lots of guns one of the lowest murder rates, Mexico, tough gun laws, insane murder rate. Also. pointing out that the US murder rate outside of certain usually, urban, areas is in inline with international norms, even gun free countries, is good.

    Japan is really, really different. I don't know a great deal about it, but the culture is a huge factor. I believe they have a strong sense of shame about some things, which isn't necessarily bad, and I think they have some laws and practices that would give libs here serious twisted panties.

    One thing I know that's a bit of an example is the local policeman of some (many?) districts maintains a booth, and all the people in the area come by to talk to him about problems, and he will stop by district houses and lecture them about things... like reading too much pornography. They have vending machines that sell used panties there (seriously)... if that doesn't show how different things are, I'm not sure what would...
  10. glennv

    glennv Well-Known Member

    The Japanese also have a much lower divorce rate and bans on some violent video games, so maybe that's it.

    Though I'm not a fan of comparing our nation to another in the far east. They have a history of deplorable actions.
  11. mgmorden

    mgmorden Well-Known Member

    The only thing Japan has banned is rape games where the objective is to go out and rape a girl as part of the game. Other than that they're fine, and Japan for a long time was the video game capital of the world. The stuff that came out of Japan was of the likes of stuff we've ever seen, and the US market has never produced a game that would be banned under Japanese laws so to say that that has any effect is very naive.
  12. WardenWolf

    WardenWolf member

    Japan is not multicultural like the US is. They have their own strong distinct culture and generally keep others out. This is where multiculturalism fails. While people should be free to follow their own way of life and ideals, you need a strong national identity as well. Before around the 1960s, this was the case in America. But then the concept of multiculturalism took hold and we gradually lost our national identity. The end of the Cold War has only further accelerated this due to no longer having something to unify against.

    The Swiss come primarily from French and German backgrounds, but they are united under a strong national identity. They are Swiss first, and their ancestry second. Multiculturalism, as we have been practicing in the US, does not work.
  13. MedWheeler

    MedWheeler Well-Known Member

    Japan is a country with a largely-homogenous population. It is very deeply-rooted in cultural values that, due to the lack of ethnic diversity, have not been eroded much in centuries. The country does not border any other country, and there are none that have populations flocking to it and bringing varying senses of value, culture, and practices to it. Its own population is simply not changing in the "progressive" manner that ours is, (in the way we use that word.)

    Life and death in Japan are both greatly respected and revered.
  14. cassandrasdaddy

    cassandrasdaddy Well-Known Member

    rub their noses in the suicide rate then add the suicide and homicide numbers together and look at the totals for there and here its surprising
  15. Narwhal

    Narwhal Well-Known Member

    Ann Coulter made a good point on fox news:

    If you compare the US white population's murder rate it's the same as Belgium's. So we don't have a gun problem, but rather a demographic problem.


    Bottom line, you can't compare an almost completely homogenous society like Japan to an incredibly diverse one like the USA and get any meaningful data.
  16. Stope Rat

    Stope Rat Well-Known Member

    There is also a difference in reporting what a "murder" is.

    In the US, if your wife kills you, and then kills herself - it counts as 1 murder, 1 suicide.

    In Japan the same situation would be counted as a double suicide.

    Sadly I don't have a reference to cite for this, other than conversations over sake with JNP officers visiting in the US as part of their exchange program. (Similar to our FBI National Academy.)
  17. gbw

    gbw Well-Known Member

    Just to nitpick I'd argue for 'attacks with intent to kill' - murders plus attempted murders. That should remove any skewing caused from guns being more likely to result in death than other weapons, per attack. Other things even (they never are), countries where guns are very hard to obtain will have lower murder rates if for no other reason than it's harder to kill without a gun than with one.
  18. cassandrasdaddy

    cassandrasdaddy Well-Known Member

    In Japan the same situation would be counted as a double suicide.

    yup and likely the kids would be dead as welll
  19. glove

    glove Well-Known Member

    japans population is much lower than the US 330 million, Japan 127 million so everything should be 1/3 lower.:)
  20. BulletArc47

    BulletArc47 Well-Known Member

    Oranges to Pineapples

    As far a I'm concerned the US is the US, and Japan is Japan; comparing the two is like comparing oranges to pineapples.

    I do not like comparing the US to other nations in general; even if a country has a lot cultural similarities to us, like the UK, or Canada for example, there still are outstanding differences that affect crime rates such as demographics, population size, and bordering countries.

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