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The Logic Behind The RKBA And Government Power

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by ConstitutionCowboy, Jul 2, 2009.

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  1. I meant to include this in the now-closed thread on [thread=459165]The battle over "reasonable" gun regulations[/thread]. Though I've posted it in the past, it is certainly relevant to the linked thread as well as it stands on it's own. I believe it can inspire more thoughtful discussion and I would like to hear from those who commented on the linked thread as well as from anyone else who would like to chime in.

    Please don't drag it into the nuclear wasteland, OK? There is a way for fissionable materials and other WMD components to be constitutionally controlled, so don't go there.


    "Revolution is the Right of the People to choose Freedom over Servitude. Those vested with power shall neither deprive the People the means, nor compel such recourse." B.E.Wood
  2. christcorp

    christcorp New Member

    Well i guess that's one way to read into it. There's a total of 27 words in the 2nd amendment of the bill of rights; yet it is argued that it takes 4 extensive paragraphs to "Clarify" those 27 words. And yet some people want to argue that those 27 words are "Simple and Basic". OK; if you say so.
  3. planetmobius

    planetmobius New Member

    You really believe this or are you just looking for entertaining feedback?
  4. Both.

  5. catspa

    catspa New Member

    Hey, Cowboy.

    I agree with your post if you are speaking in an ethical or moral sense. The government is entitled to exercise the powers that the people granted to it in the Constitution, as long as it uses them to improve the "general welfare", or the common good. And I commend you for your understanding of the principle that citizens cannot grant to the government authority that they do not possess themselves in respect to each other, on an ethical basis.

    However, if you look around you will see that today, the government has claimed to itself many additional powers, not on the basis of the consent of the governed, but rather on the threat of force. With regard to these additional powers (the un-just ones, according to Thomas Jefferson), we are back to the law of the jungle, where the weak are afraid of the strong, and the big ones can eat the little ones.

    In cases where government power is derived from the illegitimate threat of force, rather than the legitimate consent of the governed, I personally consider compliance to be optional. I believe that to do otherwise is to accept that individuals hold a subservient or inferior status to the group, which I cannot do.

    Where the RKBA is concerned, most regulations are based on restricting my actions in response to the actions of others, restricting my actions based on fear of what I MIGHT do, or considering me guilty until proven innocent (or some combination thereof). I see these regulations as unjust, I do not consent to them, and I obey them only when I choose.

  6. catspa,

    There is no doubt that you get it. That's two of us so far...

  7. runrabbitrun

    runrabbitrun member

    I get it too.

    Was just waiting on catspa to write it our for me. lol
  8. catspa

    catspa New Member

    No problem, rabbit, glad to be of service. Anything else I can help you with? Dissertation on the pros and cons of increased carrot consumption in modern society? Wedding poem for your female family member? Snappy comebacks for a person who might insult you?

  9. Harve Curry

    Harve Curry New Member

    Count me in as Simple & Basic no.4:)
  10. WinchesterAA

    WinchesterAA New Member

    We're animals.

    We were fish like creatures in our father's testicles... We all fought the other fish-like creatures to the egg.. and WON! You came that way.. you fought that fight, that right there was a fight to the death. You were either the one, or dead. You were the one. Did you ever think about it like that?

    Then we all grew into a meatbag floating along in amniotic fluid for almost a year so we can grow all the crap we need to work. Then we're thrust out into this big world.

    Now, let's consider two things. One, is that before the invention of invention, people were still alive.

    and Two, is that in 2009, nobody knows sh*t about life. Nobody can prove who, what, when, why, or how anything has ever happened.

    So, you take the trip through life, and before you know it, you start picking up on the fact that people are manipulating you. They're trying to get you to dance, or to smile, or to do some goofy toddler stunt, then you get older and that starts to wear off. Plus, your family hopefully has gotten over your entertainment value, and instead wishes to put you to work so you don't go out of your mind. You start to "grow up", start to respect your environment more, etc, I think everyone knows what I mean..

    THEN, all of a sudden.. Just like your parents and family did to you when you were a kid, you have .gov doing the same thing to you when you're an adult. Back to infancy, back to irresponsibility, back to oblivious behavior..

    But not everyone wants that.

    Also in this world, we notice deeply "tragic" circumstances, such as monkeys ripping people's faces, genitalia, etc off and being genuinely devastating to the human body, and in this situations the people could have done not one thing aside from say.. "No, I don't want to go anywhere near that monkey."

    If they were bribed, they would respond with force
    If they were coerced, they would be extremely offended

    I don't want near your monkey. Attack any who force you to confront the monkey. You can say no. They didn't, and as a result they were roughed up a bit.

    SO, when you have a human being in a position of power over you, and he's leading you where you don't wish to be, and you don't support his ideals, and you don't support his directive, and you don't support his advisors, and you don't support anything else about the man.. what do you do?

    Say no.. I don't want your sh*t. I don't want your medicare, I don't want your gun regs, I don't want your vehicle regs, I don't want your omnipotent behavior, I don't want to pay you for anything, not sales tax, not income tax, no taxes on NFA weapons, no property taxes, nada. I don't want to pay the fine you're trying to pass through for not having health insurance, don't want to pay more for the carbon I produce, don't want to pay you to implement BS programs like "No Child Left Behind" and "Affirmative Action", "The Patriot Act", and "The National Firearms Act" I don't want to pay the government do manage these things. *

    It's all BS. We had a winner of an idea, but we got careless and we let the wrong people try to tell us how to do it. We can't ask ANYONE how to do this. We determine how we operate. We always will.

    The difference between subservience and independence is this..


    So, I vote for a reboot.. we can survive without all the useless crap decades of crooks have tried to tell the USofA would be in her best interest. We can survive without hate crime laws, and gun laws. I rather enjoyed the bill of rights, and would support that same document.

    I suggest we, the people make the constitution stand out a little bit more. It should be terrifying for someone to consider violating our rights. Not because the jail time and fines exceed 10 years and 10,000 dollars...

    but because millions of people will be very angry if you do. Don't care who you are, don't care what town you're in.. If you're making gun laws, stealing people's stuff under the color of law, or anything else of a seedy nature, you will be made aware of that fact, and punishment is discretionary, and considered by group vote via cellphone applications.

    OUR LIVES need to be about more than what you can illustrate on paper with your various committees and sub-committees designed to nitpick every detail of the HUMAN ANIMAL to exploit every last option. People in charge need to know that screwing up is a really bad thing. REALLY bad, and if you do it on purpose, no one's gunna feel bad for what happens. After all.. We're animals.
  11. Mohawk

    Mohawk New Member

    I commend you Constitutional Cowboy on a well thought out, perfectly reasoned position concerning the powers of the government and how it is derived from the will of the people. I especially like the part about how the people can’t even legally give the government power to enact laws and regulations as these powers are held collectively and we, as “The people” cannot abrogate our responsibility to the government.

    With your permission I would like to make a copy of your post and then I will immediately convert a couple black rifles to F/A and go to the range and shoot the hell out of them. When the range officer tries to intervene I will hand your excellent post to him and continue shooting; knowing I have the clear, concise interpretation of "the Peoples" intent as stated in the constitution. I hope the guy in the booth to my right will pick up my brass for me as ammo is very expensive. I will also send a copy of your irrefutably, logical post to the IRS in lieu of my 2009 tax payments. Based on your inspiring words I will now open carry everywhere so there is no time when I compromise my personal safety. I will carry a very large Desert Eagle with a 100 round bandolier in all the malls, day care centers and my grandsons school when I go to pick him up. A copy of your post should convince anyone who objects that I’m sincere in my adherence to the constitution and the Bill Of Rights and as a citizen bound by the constitution and BOR I can, in good conscience, do nothing less.
    Thank You

    (Hey! You wanted entertainment :)
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2009
  12. Harve Curry

    Harve Curry New Member

    A well thought out post from Cornville Arizona, the Founding Fathers would be proud to count as one of them.
  13. Ruggles

    Ruggles member

    "Say no.. I don't want your sh*t. I don't want your medicare, I don't want your gun regs, I don't want your vehicle regs, I don't want your omnipotent behavior, I don't want to pay you for anything, not sales tax, not income tax, no taxes on NFA weapons, no property taxes, nada. I don't want to pay the fine you're trying to pass through for not having health insurance, don't want to pay more for the carbon I produce, don't want to pay you to implement BS programs like "No Child Left Behind" and "Affirmative Action", "The Patriot Act", and "The National Firearms Act" I don't want to pay the government do manage these things. *"

    And if enough voters agree with you then non of these programs or laws would exist. The fact that they do not agree with you in the numbers needed to repeal or change these laws and programs is what you're upset about.

    It's called Democracy, it's a good thing.

    You will continue to have your tax dollars used to support these programs until you have the political power (i.e. votes) to change it. You can not pick and choose what parts of society to accept and to ignore, it does not work like that. I am sure there are programs and laws you support that others who are being taxed to pay for them do not. They like you are stuck with it unless they can muster the political power to change it.

    You are not 10 and you can not take you're football and go home because you do not like the rules of the game.
  14. WinchesterAA

    WinchesterAA New Member

    Preface - I never got a really good history teacher, or atleast not one that could keep the room quiet long enough to teach, so I skipped most of that til now. A lot of what I write may not seem fully thought out, and that's because it's not. It's what I've got to go on, so in the interests of myself, and anyone else in a similar position as myself, please explain your views with as much detail as possible. I also don't expect anyone to agree with me. (Mostly because I have nothing to do with government, but I know a lot about people, and government is people..)

    Ruggles, what do you suggest, my friend? I mean, I don't want to back down, or go home as you say. I also don't think violence is necessary, but I think the country is headed south.

    I think it's not unreasonable to assume that in 50 years much of the USA may nolonger belong to the USA. I think it's not unreasonable to assume that society is going to take a very similar path as our counterparts across the pond.

    I also think that with the increased acceptance of medications to treat every little thing without regard for personal safety in the use of these medications, we may see an even greater apathetic approach to life as exhibited by just about everybody, and the consequences inaction brings.

    I mean, am I wrong or what? Are my eyes playing tricks on me? Is what I see false?

    If I were to ask myself how many people I've seen..
    Sign a contract without reading it.
    Shout praises for someone
    Shout profanities at the same person for the exact opposite reason for the praise this person was given initially.
    touting their high horse lines from the TV, meanwhile I see further erosion of our constitutional rights, and when asked about this, people really don't know, or care, how to respond.

    Well good.. apathy(.gov) runs my life(country).. Could it get any better than that, I mean for real.. Look how far we've come.

    What do we do? Follow along til it comes time for us to engage in America's Next Top President to see WHO WILL FINALLY BE.. America's Next Top President. Don't miss the awards ceremony afterward detailing America's Next Top Vice President. In other news, senator XXX condones beastiality, citing examples of his first girlfriend on the farm.. a mule.. as well as getting caught one day out and about with the mistress on tax payer's dime.. he's still confused as to whether or not he'll resign.. wait, no, he doesn't want to resign.

    No. I vote against that. I vote against a government that bases itself on manipulating gullible people, and half-cocked opportunism. I also vote against crooks, wherever they are, and whoever they are.

    How many times do I watch clueless individuals play around on their toy computer's, blissfully divulging confidential information these very same individuals might fight you over in person. The government's response to this is to.. copy them. It's a great strategy. Or take it a step further and get bank records, cable records, etc etc.. It doesn't matter. Whatever you do, someone's watching so that if .gov needs it, it's there.

    and it's because they say you're a terrorist, and because they say you're a terrorist, those who don't know better might also think you're a terrorist, and might also call for more anti-terrorist (anti-YOU) measures. Then .gov has no choice but to "Do as the people wish! because we said so originally, and now they believe us...."

    I would appreciate the input from our older members here (>70) if any read this far.

    What would you do if you were 22 years old right now?
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2009
  15. Wow, you really know how to misquote, don't you! I presented an epexegesis and you interpolated it. Was it an attempt at reductio ad absurdum? There has to be truth in such a demonstration for it to work.

    Be careful how you use that post of mine. Your mileage may vary. But I must admit, you are entertaining. It would be informative if you crafted something that explains your view on the subject. How 'bout it?


    If this were a democracy, you'd be right. Since this is a constitutional republic, these laws should never have been proposed let alone passed. We have these laws only because of usurpation of power.

    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 6, 2009
  16. General Geoff

    General Geoff Active Member

    Democracy is evil. It is a tyranny of the majority.
  17. Harve Curry

    Harve Curry New Member

    Look on your money, your state emblem and flag, The Pledge of Allegiance. There is no mention of democracy in or on any of it. A Republic recognizes the rights of minorities , an important feature absent from a democracy.
  18. dogrunner

    dogrunner New Member

    Thank you Gnl' Geoff...........don't know if I'd use the adjective 'evil'..........but it is a flawed system, our founders recognized that and therefore tried to create that Constitutional Republic.......but maybe that was just a dreamers fantasy........certainly what we have is NOT what was envisioned. Still, it's what we got, and like the trite sayin' goes.......you 'dance with who brung you'.....Truly, I deplore the idiots amongst us that rant and rail about the gun laws, the corrupt politicians, the taxes et al.....ad nauseum! AND yet don't register to vote, don't join the NRA, don't attend political meetings and generally don't do anything but preach to the choir.....US........Which way is our way of life going to go! Who the hell knows, all I know is that I do what I can when I can.....I try to influence youth, I've ponied up with the NRA, done a Natl. Ad for them during my LEO/CLEO time (took heat for that too) sponsored and encouraged the Eddie Eagle program in local schools when I was in a position to do it...........You all NEED to do the same....that's the sort of stuff that keeps the wolf from the door fellas!

    This is likely one of the most interesting threads I've seen in quite a while. The most striking comment I think is AA's query to us old timers........"what would you do it you were 22"................well I'm not QUITE at that plus 7 decade point yet (close 'nuff tho!). And I'd like to toss a considered answer.......tho likely, knowing human nature and self I really gotta' believe I'd likely do just as I did!.........Still, I'd assure myself of a THOROUGH education, and not just an academic one, tho that OUGHT to come into play too. I would acquire every day, saleable skills such as welding or perhaps a machinist course or two.......I would not overlook a stint in the military as there is real value to had just virtue of that experience.
    IF I had the benefit of all this hindsight at that age sure I'd align life a bit differently and position myself for a more secure financial future too.......and that just might not mean gettin' more funds but perhaps by locating myself in an area where that sort of stress is minimized..................IF...............biggest damn word in the English language!
  19. WinchesterAA

    WinchesterAA New Member

    Thank you ConstitutionCowboy, I wish I could speak that directly about this subject..

    So that this stays on topic with firearms I'd like to note that my concerns stem from my career interests. What I want to do is heavily jeopardized by todays world, and where it is going.

    I want a better pistol, and some better rifles. I like what I have now, but if I had my say in it, I'd do it a little bit differently. New technology allows me to renegotiate some old technological constraints to come up with some pretty useful designs. Naturally, I understand that high prices today are a bad thing. I have a pretty good idea about a way to make a really fine firearm for next to nothing. My main goal is to create the firearms for myself, because I want them, but also because it will provide the opportunity for anyone, regardless of who or what got them there, to have the best possible firearm, and it's also the cheapest. If everyone has the ability to own one without consequence, not even financial, then a lot will be bought buy people who otherwise wouldn't have.

    and that will hopefully keep a roof over my head.

    The problem I get nowadays is a thorough spread of incompetency here in Houston. Let alone the fact I can hardly communicate with anybody here, and not necessarily because I don't try, but because it's a fast city. The only people who aren't in a hurry are crackheads or people who will definitely make you late to wherever it is you're going.

    Most of the answers you get from anyone if you try to ask a direct question will either get you a brushed off answer, a lie for convenience, a lie out of ignorance, or you might be presented with a redirected question seeking more information about what you're ACTUALLY trying to do, BUT.. that doesn't work. The voodoo I speak does not register with the woman behind the desk, the sales guy, the technician, the customer, the cashier, or the cashier and she does not know how to help me, who to ask for help, or if they even offer that service/product.

    How this applies to school - You'd figure Houston would have a lot of opportunities. Well, it does if you're into what everyone else is doing. That is, lawncare, plant work (layoffs all the time), remodeling (speaking spanish a requirement for longevity), and minimum wage jobs. or .gov jobs.

    HCC had a machining department, until a few days before I decided to go there when the head of the department quit without notice. They're not sure when it's gunna be back up, but I can go for career automotive technician making $11.50/hr. No thank you.. that sounds like a waste of my time. I'll leave out how uninformative the counselors were.

    College of the mainland has a CAST program, or atleast that's what their website says. Nobody on the phone knows about it, the phone numbers they provide lead me to civilian phone numbers unassociated with anything I'm interested in.

    The school systems are so pathetic here. It doesn't even seem like I should bother with it, but then again.. I need that seal of approval that guarantees that I can tolerate gross incompetency, and a seriously disorganized educational environment. I have higher standards than that. What I see is the result of a consumer driven lifestyle where what a person does to make money does not mean anything at all to that person, and the consumer doesn't really care either as long as the service tech says job's done, everything's good, and they've got the TV on. Seriously, if you look at the way the people around me live, the crappy jobs they put up with from the people who keep the community running, you'll notice that they really don't care. They don't know much about it, and they don't want to, they just want everything to be OK, but it's not. We, as a nation, need to seriously get our butts in gear. I'm tired of being praised for how great a job I did, and how horrible everyone else is at it. I'm not that good!

    and these same people are the people who work in the schools, work in the stores, work in the plants, work in the shops, work in the police departments, etc etc.

    WHAT is wrong? Why is it that, even though I have plenty of money, that I can go to any school I want to, and what I want to learn is how to make great things happen with a drill press, mill, late, cnc machines (I've got a feeling that, based on my prior programming skills, CNC will be pretty natural for me. I've already taught myself a good bit about cad software as well, so there's a lot of really awesome possibilities with all of this technology, and if I had a good place to learn about it, I might actually get my business rolling.

    I need to dive into a few other realms as well, and these fields are quite prevalent and growing, highly sought after positions blah blah etc etc so I figure I could do that, but that stuff is pretty cheap, and not too complicated, what I really need is the expensive machining tools to build components of another machine, and the knowledge it takes to do that.

    but no.. smart people either don't exist, or wish to remain anonymous. I can see both as being true. There's definitely not an abundance of smart people, so that some of these blessed souls would end up teaching me what I need to know, otherwise it'd be a little simpler.

    Of course, in the long run all it boils down to is me needing money and the internet. All the information in the world is right here on the internet, complete with video tutorials and reviews, etc etc..

    I need the tools, that's all I need. I guess I could always start completely from scratch. I could assume that society around me is incapable of supplying me with anything I deem useful, and that if I have children, and they are in any way influenced by me, they too will feel as perplexed as I did going through the school system.. "You can be anything you want to be! Do anything you want to do!" only to realize that you kinda have to be part of the club to get a job doing that kind of stuff. Have someone "in the loop" that'll get you a spot. It'd help a whole lot to have the tools, and chances are you do if you got into the club. That's fine, I understand that. Those that have do, it's simple. It's primitive, too.. It's not conducive to progress.

    I want more people like me, but damned if I can find someone that isn't buried in a cellphone, video game, or grinding, or.. you know.. not really thinking at all, on pills or something.

    but it doesn't have to be that way. If people actually realized that they themselves are the answer to all of their questions, and that everyone elses results are going to be pretty predictable, then maybe we could put together a real effort to restore this country. We could get rid of the telephone pole infrastructure, ditch the underground system that sticks the utility boxes in your backyard, and gets all kinds of land uprooted. We could have far faster connectivity, and we could contemplate ways to defraud the internet so that the prevalence of fraudulent software isn't so severe as to overflow into the retail stores. This will really help out, because for some odd reason a lot of people who are wise to the ways of people, and in some instances they themselves are masterful at their conniving ways, but when they get on a computer, all of a sudden everyone is their friend, everything is interesting and fun and new and it's like a new world where you don't disagree with everybody, but it's the same people you don't get along with, and they're doing the same things they do in the real world, except now you're buying it, because all you have to do to buy it is click this button, and the adware/spyware specialist has all the info he needs to collect a fat check. For added bonus, he might hit your contact lists too, and sell their email addys to marketing and statistical groups, who then send them a ton of spam.

    I could do that.. but I don't want to. I remember when the internet was still semi-new and everyone didn't have it. Man it was awesome. The games were better, the threads were better, the stories were more genuine, and then the kids got ahold of the internet too, new restrictions came about, new scams based on those restrictions came about, etc etc.. now you have all kinds of special organizations dedicated to keeping the kiddies safe by telling everyone to stop doing things a certain way.

    Half of me wants to say, well.. maybe kids shouldn't be on the net..
    but the other half of me says.. wow.. it's all here, boy.. everything you need to know. Be careful.

    Either way, I'll make my own guns, whether or not I make them for anybody else depends on everybody else. If everyone keeps letting our government "randomly flip switches" in hopes of eventually hitting the right one, then it might be illegal for me to continue. That'd be a shame.. I mean, the technology I want is useful for all kinds of stuff, including manufacturing firearms.

    Where am I gunna go for that?
  20. Forklift352

    Forklift352 New Member

    I like how you guys think.Most people don't understand that we didn't need all these
    laws in the first place!!!! I ride a bicycle and some times a motorcycle.Both cases
    I were the appropriate safety gear. Not because their are laws but because I want to
    increase the chances of survival....and it looks cool. LOL. I like to were my seat belt
    in my car. Again in the improbable case of a crash I would like to increase my chances
    of survival.

    So I would like to own a select fire rifle. I don't mind the 200.00 tax so much...
    Its the 10,000-20,000 that suxxxxx. But the gov. makes the decision that we the people
    cant handle full auto but we the filthy rich and powerful can.
    We don't need so many laws.... We need folks to cultivate "common sense."
    And pass it on. I could care less if they repealed the helmet law.... I'll still wear mine.
    And if they opened the NFA registry to include "light" machine guns of all years
    I'll still just "pack" my .45.
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