The new XM25.

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They were horrified, a bunch of guys kept claiming that there was no way that a missile could be that powerful, that the tank had to be packed full of explosives to make an explosion that violent. I've seen a powerpoint presentation detailing the aftermath of a javelin drilling a T-72. IIRC, the turret was something like 20 or 30 meters away from the hull, and they found some random piece a couple hundred meters away.

Tanks pretty much ARE packed full of explosives. A fully-loaded T-72 has 40 rounds, in which the propellant charges make a dandy fire and create huge overpressures if confined. And there might be an HE round or two in there, to boot.

The Javelin with its top attack mode gets tanks where it hurts.
 
I'd be horrified if people still believed that video too. It's been concretely debunked as a fraud, in fact the tank exploded before the missile even hits, and as you mentioned the *unconventional results to the turret. BTW HESH was most effective for blowing turrets off, but they never did anything like that, that turret was Buried Very forcefully in the ground.



":Hehahahahaaa...

I saw a video once linked on this Middle East defense forum (from what little I read of it, the people actually seemed to be from the Middle East) of a Javelin missile thumping a T-72. They were horrified, a bunch of guys kept claiming that there was no way that a missile could be that powerful, that the tank had to be packed full of explosives to make an explosion that violent. I've seen a powerpoint presentation detailing the aftermath of a javelin drilling a T-72. IIRC, the turret was something like 20 or 30 meters away from the hull, and they found some random piece a couple hundred meters away.

So yeah, a Jevelin will pretty much put your @#$% in the dirt.

~Slam_Fire"
 
the Gustav might not kill modern MBTs, but they'll do a number on APCs and other light armor.

The Rangers (and maybe SF) are the only US troops who use the Gustav. the primary mission they use it for is 'ballistic breach,' i.e. blowing holes in walls so they can get into buildings. It does a great job at that.
 
the Gustav might not kill modern MBTs, but they'll do a number on APCs and other light armor.

If the battlefield were segregated, so you'd only encounter light armor and no tanks in your sector, that would be a great advantage.

The Rangers (and maybe SF) are the only US troops who use the Gustav. the primary mission they use it for is 'ballistic breach,' i.e. blowing holes in walls so they can get into buildings. It does a great job at that.

There are currently a lot of other weapons which can do the same job, and do it better with less weight.
 
But can they do other jobs, and have a diverse array of munitions, as well as being re-useable?

Falluja vids show TOWs being used as bunker busters, :) perhaps a step backwards would be more cost effective in that instance.
 
But can they do other jobs, and have a diverse array of munitions, as well as being re-useable?

Being reusable isn't all that great a virtue -- there is nothing heavier than a weapon that's out of ammunition.

Falluja vids show TOWs being used as bunker busters, perhaps a step backwards would be more cost effective in that instance.

On the other hand, we have plenty of TOws, and we do need to rotate stocks so as to have fresh ammo. No sense in sitting on rounds that are about to expire.
 
Those may be the new bunker buster TOWs...new design, with a warhead optimized for the job.

The standard TOWs did a sub-optimal job at blasting fortifications, especially the -IIB model, which was designed to fly over the traget tank and explode downward.
 
Study after study have shown that there is no combat need for a rifle beyond 300 Meters. This is one of the main reasons they went to the .223 round in the M16. Most soldiers don't need to shoot out to 600+ meters. What they do need is the ability to carry more ammo, which the smaller round allows.

Who ever is doing these studies has not been to Afghanistan or Iraq. Urban counter sniper missions where they are dropping targets out past 500m on a regular basis in Iraq.

Ridge line to ridge line fighting where the M16 cant even inagine hitting targets at those ranges. If they would bother to go to A-stan they would see a significant amount of Soldiers and Marines carrying M14's. More would be carrying them if they could get them.

That study may have been true for jungle fighting a few decades ago, but I can tell you it is grossly incorrect for todays desert and mountain battlefields.
As for the H&K, you can keep it. 40mm is where it is at. I guess since the XM8 has proven to be a lemon in the hands of the testers at Benning they had to do something to try and get into the game.


As for airburst rounds that they are doing final developement on for the MK-47, they are programed thru the optical sight attached to the weapon. It lases the target, figures trajectory and when the round is fired it is programmed into the round as it passes three small pins inside the barrel. The pins will be user replaceable after 3,000rds and the barrel can only be used with those rounds. But it takes a few seconds to change barrels so it is not a big deal for the shooter to configure the weapon for the mission.


And with the new thermobaric rounds (much more deadly in buildings than a bunch of shrapnel from an HE round, you can hid behind heavy wood from shrapnel...) as well as other new munitions, the M203 has joined the new generations of weapons systems. Better barrel systems and new ammo has brought this weapon up to speed.

The M3 Carl Gustav now has nearly a dozen rounds available for it in the Army system. The Ranger Batts have them and they are being fielded to SF units. They do have anti tank rounds that will defeat most tanks on the battle field (remember that the PG-7VM round has defeated a good number of tanks in Iraq, so it doesn't take that much with good shot placement).
With most walls being made from sun baked bricks, or factory made bricks that can be as thick as 24 inches, anything shorts of a MBT is not going to cut it. The LAW, AT-4 and Gustav were ineffective or moderately effective in A-stan. But most doors are made of thin sheet steel over a poorly welded steel frame and they come off really easy with either a small breeching charge or by being hooked up to your Toyota and pulled off the hinges.


Being reusable isn't all that great a virtue -- there is nothing heavier than a weapon that's out of ammunition.

Most of us think it is a great virtue in this case. Flexability of use, a wide variety of ammo and since it is a mission specific weapon and not a soldiers primary weapon, weight is not a great issue most of the time. We dont usually hump into out objectives anymore. Helos and ground vehicles get us on target much quicker than humping in, keep soldiers in a higher state of readiness and help add the element of suprise. It also provides a place to resupply from, or to drop resupply to us when needed. Yeah carrying it sucks, but is worth the pain when you need it.
 
Most of us think it is a great virtue in this case. Flexability of use, a wide variety of ammo and since it is a mission specific weapon and not a soldiers primary weapon, weight is not a great issue most of the time. We dont usually hump into out objectives anymore. Helos and ground vehicles get us on target much quicker than humping in, keep soldiers in a higher state of readiness and help add the element of suprise. It also provides a place to resupply from, or to drop resupply to us when needed. Yeah carrying it sucks, but is worth the pain when you need it.

Where is the flexibility in a weapon that is out of ammo, and requires a dedicated gunner and assistant gunner?

You can carry more disposable rounds for the same weight as the Gustav and ammo. You can distribute them through a unit (try assembling distributed Gustav rounds under fire.)

And you get the same flexibility of warhead selection -- there's no law that requires disposables to have only one type ammo!
 
LOL! Whatever dude. If we didn't like it, we would not have pitched such a fit to get them as part of the MTOE for our units. To each his own.
 
LOL! Whatever dude. If we didn't like it, we would not have pitched such a fit to get them as part of the MTOE for our units. To each his own.

Just like Army Aviation pitched a fit to get ,38 revolvers as part of the MTOE for their units during the Viet Nam war. :p

The 90mm RR and the Karl Gustav were better than the Dragon, because they worked. They're long past their glory days now. There's better equipment available.
 
That may be true, but this is what is in the system, this is what we get, this is what we will get for several years to come. They still ill terrorists, I guess that is what is most important right now.

What other weapons would you recommend, why?
 
That may be true, but this is what is in the system, this is what we get, this is what we will get for several years to come. They still ill terrorists, I guess that is what is most important right now.

What other weapons would you recommend, why?

Actually, we have very few Karl Gustavs in the system. On the other hand, we have plenty of AT-4s, Javelins, and specialized weapons for breaching, anti-armor and anti-personnel use.
 
The XM-25 is a considered replacement for the M203 as a standard for urban and individual squad level use.

The XM-25 makes a grenadier a stand alone specialty again instead of turning a rifleman into a grenade launcher when time permits.

Ammunition is being developed to allow this weapon to be utilized as a door breacher, direct fire unit, airburst capable, point fire using shotgun type ammunition, a signalling device, and several less than lethal ammunition options are being developed and considered for use including softballs, electromagnetic pulse rounds for disabling rader, radio comm, anything electronic actually.

Versatality is the key here.

For longer ranges, the crew served ATGS belt fed 40mm will continue to be used and new munitions are being developed to improve performance and adaptability of this weapon system also.
 
Having been trained as a Dragon gunner, let me tell you... there is a lot of reason to be nervous about shooting them. Not only have a couple exploded at launch, but they have also scorched the gunners shooting them. Now, if they don't hurt you right off the bat, they have a nasty habit of telling the bad guys exactly where they need to shoot. If you are a gunner lucky enough to get a clean shot off, and not be harmed from it, the enemy has anywhere from 4 to 11 very long seconds to engage you with machinegun fire from the roof mounted guns or even the coax.... if they don't just blast you with a HEAT round.
They advised us to use ambushing moves and fire simultaniously at our targets from different directions and to pop smoke too... and ideally if at all possible, to shoot the enemy vehicles from behind.
Great weapon the Dragon.
:barf:
 
I remember seeing the initial stats that HK put out for the ballistics of the 20mm. I'm still waiting to see how this thing reaches those numbers with out having just brutal recoil.
 
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